Do Villains test Surge?

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MalicWanderer
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Do Villains test Surge?

Postby MalicWanderer » Thu May 23, 2019 5:26 pm

I hope this hasn't been brought up already, I tried searching the forums and the FAQ and couldn't find anything. I noticed today there are no Drama cards with "V Surge." I'm wondering if the intent is that Surge is a hero only problem, or that it applies to both sides at the same time?

The book seems to imply either option depending on which section you check. In the Drama Deck section it says:
Surge: Everyone on this side must check for Contradictions (see page 178).


And in the reality rules (page 178 in fact, go figure) it says:
When Surge comes up on the Conflict Line of the Drama Deck, any character who is not of that reality or has something foreign to that reality on his person must make a Contradiction check.


Emphasis mine in both cases. I kind of lean towards interpreting RAW as only heroes suffer surges, but I'm not totally confident in that interpretation, and am curious to the intent either way.

ZorValachan
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Re: Do Villains test Surge?

Postby ZorValachan » Thu May 23, 2019 5:45 pm

It's only heroes.
1) Conflict line only applies to that side.
2) the Surge rule is a simplification of the OT rule that had disconnection checks for "passive contradictions" that only applied to heroes.
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Spatula
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Re: Do Villains test Surge?

Postby Spatula » Thu May 23, 2019 6:01 pm

I was just thinking of passive contradictions earlier and wondering if there was enough associated cost. For example, a human brute from the Living Land wearing Destroyer Armor (tech 26) - in the Cyberpapacy, that'd only be a 1-case contradiction, which the brute would have to be rolling for anyway as a non-Cyberpapacy native if Surge came up. But I suppose it would be a 4-case everywhere else so that's not too bad.

Page 178 says, "any character who is not of that reality or has something foreign to that reality on his person must make a Contradiction check. This is a single d20 roll, using the worst of his Contradictions (One Case or Four Case)." It doesn't say what case it is for characters "not of that reality." I'm assuming it's a 1-case.

I guess as a house rule I would say that IMO the check should be:
  • Native, no contradictory equipment: no check needed
  • Native, contradictory equipment: 4-case (1-case isn't possible for natives)
  • Non-Native, no contradictory equipment: 1-case
  • Non-Native, personal or local contradictory equipment: 4-case (would be 1-case by RAW but character has basically 2 strikes against them from the Everlaws' POV)
  • Non-Native, personal and local contradictory equipment: 4-case (maybe should be a 16-case? :D )
Which would make the aforementioned brute a 4-case everywhere.

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Atama
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Re: Do Villains test Surge?

Postby Atama » Thu May 23, 2019 6:32 pm

Spatula wrote:Which would make the aforementioned brute a 4-case everywhere.

Hey leave my caveman alone. :(
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Sword of Spirit
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Re: Do Villains test Surge?

Postby Sword of Spirit » Thu May 23, 2019 6:48 pm

A surge is localized to the vicinity. There is NO reason the villains wouldn't also be subject to it.

There are some mistakes in the rules. There is no reason for the rules (in that one place) to state that it happens to the side whose line it's on...and then have it only ever be on the heroes' side. RPGs are complex and oversights happen. When the rules contradict themselves, I always go with what makes sense.

There is neither in-world nor metagame reason to have it only ever affect the characters, therefore the text that implies that is the case should be disregarded in favor of the text that implies the opposite.

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MalicWanderer
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Re: Do Villains test Surge?

Postby MalicWanderer » Thu May 23, 2019 7:08 pm

Spatula wrote:
  • Non-Native, personal or local contradictory equipment: 4-case (would be 1-case by RAW but character has basically 2 strikes against them from the Everlaws' POV)

I'd only call it a four case if the tool contradicts both realities. Basically look at all the things the character has and find the worst contradiction and roll for that, with themselves counting as a 1-case for being foreign. If they also have a tool that works for them and not here, or one that fits here but not them, those are both still 1-case so that's all your rolling against.

ZorValachan wrote:It's only heroes.
1) Conflict line only applies to that side.
2) the Surge rule is a simplification of the OT rule that had disconnection checks for "passive contradictions" that only applied to heroes.
I don't really consider "how it worked in oTorg" to be a reason in and of itself. They're different games and eternity certainly differs in other places. Your first point however, is why I said I was leaning towards only heroes, at least for RAW.

Sword of Spirit wrote:A surge is localized to the vicinity. There is NO reason the villains wouldn't also be subject to it.

And this is why I wonder as to the intent. I've been conceptualizing surges as reality (the everlaws if you prefer, but I wasn't going to get into them for my hypothetical players) doing a sweep, looking for all contradictions. As opposed to the norm where it's just sort of keeping one eye open for blatant transgression.

But I know if that's how I explain it and it doesn't affect villains I'm setting myself up for, "Why doesn't reality care about Wu-Han waving that electro ray around in the living land?!"

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Re: Do Villains test Surge?

Postby ZorValachan » Thu May 23, 2019 8:11 pm

MalicWanderer wrote:
Spatula wrote:
  • Non-Native, personal or local contradictory equipment: 4-case (would be 1-case by RAW but character has basically 2 strikes against them from the Everlaws' POV)

I'd only call it a four case if the tool contradicts both realities. Basically look at all the things the character has and find the worst contradiction and roll for that, with themselves counting as a 1-case for being foreign. If they also have a tool that works for them and not here, or one that fits here but not them, those are both still 1-case so that's all your rolling against.

ZorValachan wrote:It's only heroes.
1) Conflict line only applies to that side.
2) the Surge rule is a simplification of the OT rule that had disconnection checks for "passive contradictions" that only applied to heroes.
I don't really consider "how it worked in oTorg" to be a reason in and of itself. They're different games and eternity certainly differs in other places. Your first point however, is why I said I was leaning towards only heroes, at least for RAW.

Sword of Spirit wrote:A surge is localized to the vicinity. There is NO reason the villains wouldn't also be subject to it.

And this is why I wonder as to the intent. I've been conceptualizing surges as reality (the everlaws if you prefer, but I wasn't going to get into them for my hypothetical players) doing a sweep, looking for all contradictions. As opposed to the norm where it's just sort of keeping one eye open for blatant transgression.

But I know if that's how I explain it and it doesn't affect villains I'm setting myself up for, "Why doesn't reality care about Wu-Han waving that electro ray around in the living land?!"


The developers stated the intent of Surge was to simplify the passive contradiction rule of OT. So it is relevant in that regard.

Setbacks and fatigue can come from the environment, they are on one side. There is no reason for this rule to be changed for a surge. If they wanted it to be both sides it could have been put elsewhere on the card (such as next to approved actions) to show it affects both sides.

Threats don't follow the same rule as heroes. They have stat blocks. Also it's easy for a player to remember if he us diconnected. Not so easy for the GM to remember which of the 20 Nile Shock troopers is.
- Leamon Crafton Jr.
Infiniverse Exchange author:

The Paraverse: An entire alternate Cosmverse
http://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/237607/

The Knights of the Road: Archtypes designed as a Storm Knight group
http://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/228365/

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MalicWanderer
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Re: Do Villains test Surge?

Postby MalicWanderer » Thu May 23, 2019 8:32 pm

ZorValachan wrote:Threats don't follow the same rule as heroes. They have stat blocks. Also it's easy for a player to remember if he us diconnected. Not so easy for the GM to remember which of the 20 Nile Shock troopers is.

The shock troopers can disconnect as a group the same way they attack. Presumably they'd do that when attacking anyway, if they're somewhere were it would make sense. Also being ords they aren't going to be reconnecting so the cognitive load isn't as high. More importantly, if the GM doesn't want their baddies to disconnect they can just use local baddies. There's a reason my example remark was based on a proper Villain and not a mook.

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TorgHacker
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Re: Do Villains test Surge?

Postby TorgHacker » Thu May 23, 2019 11:00 pm

Yes, Surges only apply to heroes. The fact that Surge appears only on their side was not an oversight it was intentional.

We did have a fair bit of discussion about that in development. The ultimate reason for this is game related.

1. Most of the time the Storm Knights are fighting locals, so Surges on the Villain side often wouldn't even happen.

2. If the battle is in a location where the villain side is also doing contradictory stuff, we don't want to be rolling contradiction tests for every single villain in the battle, and there are usually more of them than the heroes. The biggest impact for disconnecting is not being able to spend Possibilities, and thus Soak, which don't really affect Ords who are taken out pretty easily anyways. So after doing all those tests it really doesn't matter much.

3. Setbacks on the Villain side are still available if you want them to disconnect passively.

4. If a GM has heartburn about it, they can just as easily say "everybody checks" but we weren't going to dictate an effect that has minimal impact on the villains and just serves to slow the game down.

5. As mentioned the main purpose of this was to get rid of having the players make a bunch of contradiction tests on their passive equipment...so it is counter productive to just move all the dice rolling to the GM, especially being in combat when things are supposed to be moving quickly.
Deanna Gilbert
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MalicWanderer
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Re: Do Villains test Surge?

Postby MalicWanderer » Fri May 24, 2019 2:32 am

TorgHacker wrote:3. Setbacks on the Villain side are still available if you want them to disconnect passively.

I like the idea of a villain setback just disconnecting the lot of them.


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