Stacking Clarification

vaminion
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Re: Stacking Clarification

Postby vaminion » Mon Jun 03, 2019 4:46 pm

TorgHacker wrote:"Characters with this perk deal Strength+2 damage with their bare hands when attacking with unarmed combat. This stacks with other unarmed combat bonuses such as an edeinos's claw attack."

Gauntlets are not bare hands.


Missed that part of brawler. That makes sense.

I'm also guessing Ki Strike stacks with everything given the wording.

agarrett
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Re: Stacking Clarification

Postby agarrett » Mon Jun 03, 2019 9:03 pm

TorgHacker wrote:

And I suspect that Dragon Warriors' Dragon Claws also stack with all of this, given the wording on Brawler.


Actually, you know what? It doesn't.

"Characters with this perk deal Strength+2 damage with their bare hands when attacking with unarmed combat. This stacks with other unarmed combat bonuses such as an edeinos's claw attack."

Gauntlets are not bare hands.


Is this a reversal of a ruling from back in March?

TorgHacker wrote:
utsukushi wrote:I think Brawler counts. I know it talks about `bare hands', but it also says specifically that it "stacks with any other unarmed combat bonuses such as an edeinos's claw attack", and Dragon Claws are an unarmed combat attack very much like that.




Yep.


By no means do I mean to be a pain on this. One of my players is running this character and it's been a royal pain for me to deal with. I like this new ruling, but want to be clear that it is a new ruling before I try to work with him on revising or making a new character. Thanks again.

utsukushi
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Re: Stacking Clarification

Postby utsukushi » Tue Jun 04, 2019 1:52 am

I'm going to just say, the idea that punching someone with a fist wrapped in metal would cause you to do less damage than punching them with the same fist not wrapped in metal seems more than a little absurd to me. Fighting with gauntlets is going to be the same style as fighting with bare hands, and that feels to me what should matter for Brawler.

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ShirtlessOBrien
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Re: Stacking Clarification

Postby ShirtlessOBrien » Tue Jun 04, 2019 2:09 am

utsukushi wrote:I'm going to just say, the idea that punching someone with a fist wrapped in metal would cause you to do less damage than punching them with the same fist not wrapped in metal seems more than a little absurd to me. Fighting with gauntlets is going to be the same style as fighting with bare hands, and that feels to me what should matter for Brawler.


I think this is very much a game balance or game design issue rather than one of realism. The problem, if there is one, is that the Brawler feat that I think was intended to make bare hands competitive with weapons can also be utilised to buff an attack which is already as powerful as anything else in the core rules to make it literally the best damaging option I am aware of.

My feeling is that starter-level Ayle dwarves should cap out at 18 or 19 damage like Tharkoldu with cyber-arms and impact hammers, pulp heroes with super-strength and a big stick, or Edeinos with death claws and Brawler. Giving them 21 damage in addition to top-tier armour and easy access to Righteousness for another +2 a lot of the time seems over the top to me.

GeniusCodeMonkey
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Re: Stacking Clarification

Postby GeniusCodeMonkey » Tue Jun 04, 2019 3:21 am

utsukushi wrote:I'm going to just say, the idea that punching someone with a fist wrapped in metal would cause you to do less damage than punching them with the same fist not wrapped in metal seems more than a little absurd to me. Fighting with gauntlets is going to be the same style as fighting with bare hands, and that feels to me what should matter for Brawler.


In The Fire Of Ra adventure, Brick-Knuckle Banko (str 15) has the brawler perk, but has special boxing gloves (+4/19). The Brawler perk doesn't do anything for the character except to add flavour (which is a good thing).

Brawler is a fighting style, as soon as you add gauntlets or even boxing gloves, you can't use the same techniques as you would have learnt with brawler. Your fighting style has changed, so you don't get the benefit of brawler.
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Spatula
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Re: Stacking Clarification

Postby Spatula » Tue Jun 04, 2019 3:43 am

Does Brawler not work with Brass Knuckles? Let’s not get crazy here.

The new stacking rules are 1 weapon + 1 damage boost. Very simple. The issue with the melee dwarf was they could get Dragon Warrior + Dragon Claws + Giant Strength and Brawler for Strength (racial max 14) + 3 + 2 + 2 = 21 damage. With the clarification, either Giant Strength or Brawler goes away and damage is more in line with other high-end melee types.

Sir Awesome
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Re: Stacking Clarification

Postby Sir Awesome » Tue Jun 04, 2019 8:43 am

So not only have you now reversed a ruling from March as noted above, but you have also reversed a ruling from yesterday with brawler.

TorgHacker wrote:
Spatula wrote:
So if I have an edeinos with the Death Claws, Blessed Weapon (claws), and Brawler perks, the strike miracle, and wearing spiked plate armor from Aysle, it would have:

base: Strength + 3 (death claws)
+1 weapon damage, +2 vs. supernatural evil
+2 damage with unarmed damage
+1/2/3 weapon damage depending on miracle success level
+2 damage with unarmed damage
So I would guess that Blessed Weapon and strike don't stack as they both boost weapon damage, and Brawler and the spiked armor don't stack as they both boost unarmed damage. But do those two groups stack with each other or not? That is, if strike had a regular Success (+1 damage), would the edeinos have a +2 to damage (nothing stacks) or +3 (strike/Blessed Weapon stacks with Brawler/spiked plate armor). Or do I have it all wrong?


Nothing in here stacks. It's all damage.


TorgHacker wrote:
vaminion wrote:
Sir Awesome wrote:
So Strike, Brawler, and Dragon Warrior Giant Strength all DO NOT stack with each other?

Cause you had ruled before that all of the above stacked with each other.



If I correctly understand how this all works...

Giant Strength "increases his strength by +2 for tests and determining damage". Strike "increases the damage value of a weapon by +1/2/3". Brawler says "Characters with this perk deal Strength+2 damage with their bare hands when attacking with unarmed combat. This stacks with other unarmed combat bonuses such as an edeinos's claw attack."

Giant Strength increases your strength directly. So starting out you're treating your strength as being 2 higher.

Brawler sets your base weapon damage to Strength+2[i]. That's not actually a bonus even though it looks like one. So with giant strength your damage is actually Strength+2 (Giant Strength)+2 (Brawler).

Strike increases the damage value of a weapon. So you end up with (Strength+2+2)+1/2/3.



Correct.


So I would like to repeat my questions
1) Do Strike, Brawler, and Giant Strength stack with each other or not?
2) Does Brawler work with Dragon's Claws or not?

vaminion
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Re: Stacking Clarification

Postby vaminion » Tue Jun 04, 2019 10:07 am

utsukushi wrote:I'm going to just say, the idea that punching someone with a fist wrapped in metal would cause you to do less damage than punching them with the same fist not wrapped in metal seems more than a little absurd to me. Fighting with gauntlets is going to be the same style as fighting with bare hands, and that feels to me what should matter for Brawler.


Just to play devil's advocate here it also puts the gauntlets in a weird place and muddies the water on Strike.

For the Gauntlets, it sets the precendent that just because something uses unarmed doesn't mean it's actually unarmed. Brawler doesn't work with claws. It wouldn't work with brass knuckles either. So presumably if a spell comes out down the line that says something like "The target's hands become hard as stone, increasing their damage by 2" or something then the gauntlets/knuckles/whatever don't apply because you aren't actually using your hands.

Strike explicitly says it increases the damage of a weapon. Now that we're differentiating between bare hands and not, it's reasonable for a GM to say Strike doesn't work with Death Claws or a martial artist's unarmed attacks but does work on the Dragon Gauntlets. I'm pretty sure that's not the intent of the miracle though.

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TorgHacker
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Re: Stacking Clarification

Postby TorgHacker » Tue Jun 04, 2019 11:12 am

Sir Awesome wrote:So not only have you now reversed a ruling from March as noted above, but you have also reversed a ruling from yesterday with brawler.



Okay, let's back up here.

THIS is the ruling:

"Bonuses or penalties from Perks, spells, miracles, psionics, or gear do not stack. Take the best bonus or worst penalty. Modifers such as conditions (Stymied/Vulnerable), combat options (Active Defense, Aim, All-Out-Attack, Darkness), and cards all stack.

Exactly whether a bonus or penalty should stack beyond that is the GM's call. Basically, be reasonable about it."

Now...if you are asking for official rulings...this is what it is.

If you are asking me for my opinion, which I was under the impression that is what folks were doing, I'm perfectly willing to do so.
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mystic101
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Re: Stacking Clarification

Postby mystic101 » Tue Jun 04, 2019 2:05 pm

Brawler was allowed to stack with brass knuckles back when the Luchador archetype came out. It was basically included so that someone could bring unarmed damage up to parity with a good melee weapon (+2 added to +1 = +3, along the lines of a one-handed sword), but only if they were willing to put a perk into it, which seemed reasonable.

Brawler + brass knucks isn't the problem. Death Claws and Dragon Claws both already starting out as +3 is the problem. Those things don't need any extra perks or other frills to bring them up to parity, because they get parity right out of the gate. Throwing Giant Strength or any of that other stuff onto them is just adding fuel to a fire that's already been lit. That's one issue.

Another issue, to me, is that I really don't think Dragon Claws (and maybe even Death Claws) should be using the unarmed combat skill anyway. Just because a big honkin' metal blade is stuck to someone's forearm instead of being held in their hand doesn't make it *not* a big honkin' metal blade. For example, I wouldn't consider the X-Men's Wolverine to be an "unarmed" combatant, with him basically going around swinging short swords/long daggers every which way to stab people.

To me, the questions are: Is someone punching/clawing something with a bare hand? Okay, it's unarmed combat. Are they a practiced "Brawler" who's really good at it? Okay, +2 damage. Are they wrapping those knuckles in metal or making those natural claws a little extra sharp somehow? Okay, maybe that's worth an extra +1 damage, depending on circumstances. Or maybe even worth adding some additional special effect to it, like the AP 2. But making it a whole natural +3? No, that's gone well away from a "normal punch" into "this is something entirely different than taking a normal swing at someone with a fist". It's entered Wolverine's claws territory, something so *artificially* good that it merits being called a melee weapon, which is the use of something artificial that works in a different way than the natural body, and so requires different techniques to wield. Having extra-hard knuckles doesn't change someone's punching technique. Having claws that are a foot long, or able to cut through steel plate like butter, certainly would. They'd start swinging those things in different ways, to different effect. It becomes something that shouldn't merit the bells and whistles that were meant to help normal unarmed attacks keep up with melee. It doesn't need that help.

That's my opinion, anyway. Personally I'd nerf Dragon Claws and Death Claws before I'd make any rulings that lead to unintended wonkiness. ("Yes, it IS strange how wrapping that metal around your knuckles makes you hit less hard. Reality's weird, champ. Don't think too hard about it.") :)


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