Stacking Clarification

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Spatula
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Re: Stacking Clarification

Postby Spatula » Tue Jun 04, 2019 2:48 pm

Attacking with claws or finger/arm blades or what have you is also not the same as using a weapon held in the hand(s). Short of creating another skill, claws and similar things have to be lumped into one of the existing fighting skills. Might as well be unarmed.

I do agree that part of the problem is that Brawler applies to claw-weapons, which I also agree don't need the help. Unfortunately that's explicit in the perk text so it's I imagine there's no chance of it being changed. As a house rule I would add an "Unarmed Strike" weapon that's normally Str+0 and tie Brawler to that weapon and only that weapon, with a note that the bonus stacks with gear. Then something like brass knuckles would be "+1 to unarmed strike damage".

But that ship has long sailed. In the "official" rules world, the one-buff rule works. I would also guess that it makes things easier for future books, in that the designers don't have to worry about players stacking up modifiers from all over.

vaminion
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Re: Stacking Clarification

Postby vaminion » Tue Jun 04, 2019 4:53 pm

So, uh, how does Bone Marked work now? Is it still a net +3 to toughness?

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TorgHacker
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Re: Stacking Clarification

Postby TorgHacker » Tue Jun 04, 2019 5:25 pm

vaminion wrote:So, uh, how does Bone Marked work now? Is it still a net +3 to toughness?


<puts on GM hat>

Yep. I mean, assuming the edeinos isn't wearing any armor.
Deanna Gilbert
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Re: Stacking Clarification

Postby Atama » Tue Jun 04, 2019 5:30 pm

vaminion wrote:So, uh, how does Bone Marked work now? Is it still a net +3 to toughness?

I assume so. Though note that the Armor of +2 doesn’t stack with worn Armor, since you can never combine Armor bonuses (with some rare exceptions like the Armor bonus from taking cover). But again none of that is new, and is unaffected by the wording of the OP.

Edit: Ninja’d while typing.
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Savioronedge
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Re: Stacking Clarification

Postby Savioronedge » Tue Jun 04, 2019 9:10 pm

For the Brawler vs Gauntlet question, think about it thus:

Brawler represents training which makes your hands "harder", doing more damage.

A Gauntlet replaces the "Hard" of your training with the "Hard" of metal (which should do more damage than an untrained bare hand)

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Re: Stacking Clarification

Postby Atama » Tue Jun 04, 2019 10:47 pm

Savioronedge wrote:For the Brawler vs Gauntlet question, think about it thus:

Brawler represents training which makes your hands "harder", doing more damage.

A Gauntlet replaces the "Hard" of your training with the "Hard" of metal (which should do more damage than an untrained bare hand)

That’s a very clever way to think about it. :)
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utsukushi
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Re: Stacking Clarification

Postby utsukushi » Wed Jun 05, 2019 2:05 am

Sorry, Deanna - your personal opinion does sometimes get mixed up with official rulings. Luckily, they go well together. ;)

I don't know. I see the general complaint against the Dwarven Warrior being able to get up to 21 damage, but that does require them to have a base 14 Strength and 3 Perks (Dragon Armor with Dragon Claws, +Giant Strength, +Brawler). Let's assume they dump their Charisma and Mind both all the way to 5s to get that 14 Strength, they could still have a Dex of 8; not spectacular, but not bad, so it does give them a decent chance of dishing out all that damage.

Meanwhile the Nile Sharpshooter with the Super Attribute: Dexterity 15 and Super Skill Firearms +7 and a Tommy Gun is going to hit Outstanding attacks against all the same opponents, for an average damage of also-21... sometimes less, true, but sometimes much more, and that's only two Perks. When they get their third, they can bring that up with Trademark Weapon. With a base attack of 26 (using Long Burst, naturally) they can multitarget to hit four opponents for that before they start running a high risk of a paltry Good result against most opponents, *and* their Dodge and Unarmed Combat defenses start at 15. They're virtually guaranteed to hit every round, and you can get AP rounds if you want to match that part, too.

The Elven Mage with a 14 Spirit and Apportation Magic can easily pull out 16-Strength Mage Hands virtually at will; give them a two-handed sword, and she's got a base damage of 20 -- 19, if she doesn't do well on her casting roll. And, of course, she gets 14 Shock and a ridiculously high Reality Skill thrown in for free. If she uses her second Perk on Strong Willed, she's not going to miss her dumped Strength *at all*. Her Dex will probably also be around an 8, tops, though, so like the Dwarf, there's that, at least.

And that's all out of the Core book. If you really want to just bear down on your damage total, there's other ways to get there, and just out of those three examples, the Dwarven Warrior is the one that has to focus the *most* on just damage, getting the least benefit along with it, since Strength is the only attribute with no Skills attached. Solid Toughness, but the Dex'ed-out Pulp Hero is never going to get hit, and the Mage can Soak anything that comes at her. The Dwarf and Mage at least have to worry a little about having a hard time landing those attacks, especially if they get Interacted against; the Pulp hero is pretty much immune to that, too, not needing a second Attribute. Very Stymied doesn't even put a dent in that.

The Edeinos with Death Claws and Brawler, if she does focus on her Strength, is in the running, but tops out at 18 damage with pretty much all the same sacrifices. And neither the Edeinos nor the Dwarf has any range - they have to be there in melee, bringing the Firing Into Melee rules into everything. The Mage and Pulp Hero don't have to worry about that. (I mean, unless they mind hitting their dwarven friend, but you know.)

Mystic101 wrote:Another issue, to me, is that I really don't think Dragon Claws (and maybe even Death Claws) should be using the unarmed combat skill anyway. Just because a big honkin' metal blade is stuck to someone's forearm instead of being held in their hand doesn't make it *not* a big honkin' metal blade. For example, I wouldn't consider the X-Men's Wolverine to be an "unarmed" combatant, with him basically going around swinging short swords/long daggers every which way to stab people.

I don't think either of those are big metal blades. Zan Slashers are, just like Wolverine, and as you say, they use Melee Weapons.


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