Nile Backer Archetypes

QuarrelBlue
Posts: 21
Joined: Thu Dec 06, 2018 12:09 pm

Re: Nile Backer Archetypes

Postby QuarrelBlue » Sun Jan 13, 2019 12:46 pm

mystic101 wrote:I don't know what the dancing discs are actually called.

They're shaped kind of like tambourines, and they're slightly different sizes so that they nest inside one another when not in use. He starts out with "two" of them, but then quickly changes it to three, four, five, and then has six out all at once. Of course the ones he's using are just decorative and have no combat value, but if they were made of metal, or high-impact plastic, or some other durable substance, and they could click together when deployed, then they'd provide decent coverage. Especially the four-disc "diamond" shape and the five disc "cross" shape.

I'm not sure what to call them, if they end up getting allowed. "Handheld, modular, configurable dance-prop shields" is a real mouthful. :)


Now I see what you mean.
I did some research myself, and found a professional(a bellydance costume shop manager who also deals in order-made tanoura costume and is the spouse of a professinal tanoura dancer) to ask on Twitter.
She says it is called "dof".(Named as a kind of frame drum, but those tanoura dancing prop dofs are not for playing music)

https://twitter.com/oriental_hanine/sta ... 1208856576

I also found a Wikipedia page about music drum dof(or daf, def, duf...). It seems like Sufi frame drums differentiated into musician's drum and dancer's "prop" drum, but still sharing the same name.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daf

(By the way, sometimes the player wants to use those dof-shield as a smaller one-handed shield to do something with the other hand.)

mystic101 wrote:The skirts are cloth. The dancer starts out with four of them, and the hole in the middle is large enough to fit up and over their head, but small enough to stop when it reaches their hips, without going any farther down unless they want it to. That way, since the skirts aren't attached at all, the dancer can just flick their wrist to get one up and spinning over their head whenever they want. If thrown toward someone at that point, I think it'd make a nifty entangling maneuver.

There's lots of other little stage magic gimmicks that there's no room to describe in the archetype write-up, but that could be incorporated by a player who did a little research. That wall of little umbrellas that pops out of nowhere at 2:30 minutes, or the way he turns one of the skirts into a "swaddled baby" at about 6:15, those kinds of things would make fun little tricks and maneuvers. (Tossing it to a surprised shocktrooper) "Don't drop the baby!!!" :)


Even with skirts alone, crafty players will come up with lots of tricks to blind, misguide, ensnare, and outwit enemies.
And with those dofs and little stage gimmicks, witty players can do quite a show...

mystic101 wrote:I think I'll take your suggestion and change it to Whirlwind. It is super thematically appropriate.


I'm glad to hear it helps.

mystic101 wrote:If there was more space on the character sheet for descriptive fluff, I'd put something in there to the effect that the ability to do non-lethal damage could be "due to miraculous blessings, magical alteration, technological modifications, or simply intense, dedicated training". That way the player would get to decide how and why it's non-lethal.


What I'm worrying is that different rationale other than simple "special training/knack" may need different game data, since miraculous blessings, magical alteration, and technological modifications are all supported with different Axioms.
(It won't be a problem if Non-Lethal mods are always more primitive than default lethal attacks, of course, but it sounds unlikely.)
In other words, I'm worrying about the limit of "Non-Lethality achieved with reality-independent rationale", but I'm not sure about actual limit, so I can only make a caution and expect careful talks with the Deveropment Team...
(To tell the truth, my ultimate thought about this Perk is "What if a character with this Perk finds a nuclear bomb, and decide to detonate it AS NON-LETHAL ATTACK?"...Yes, I know, Weapons of Mass Destruction are usually resolved as Plot Devices rather than actual weapons, but there's always a possibility(and less extreme but still dangerous cases)...)

mystic101 wrote:I would actually prefer Dex 10, Mind 8 myself, also. I put Mind 9 on there because Deanna is of the opinion that one would need Mind 9 to cover the weight of an average male, and then +1 for "bulkiness". That would actually be Mind 10, but most male professional dancers are shorter and more compact than an average male, so I thought I could get away with Mind 9 being enough for both an average female, and for the lithe, compact nature of most professional males.


Ahh, "Mental Strength" for Telekinesis...! I completely forgot that. Sorry.
(Maybe I'm still unfamiliar with Psionics in Torg, since oTorg Japanese product hadn't reached it...)

mystic101 wrote:
QuarrelBlue wrote:*)If there are any tactic to cover weakness(low Taunt defence, low Tough covered with Torso-only armor which is rather easily bypassed by a skilled foe), I'd like to see it.

For the torso only, low Toughness problem, there are a few mitigating factors. If the dancing discs get approved, then the character has a +2 defense in ranged mode, and a +2 defense in melee due to two-weapon fighting, so that'll help them get hit a little less. The Spirit value is good, which will help with the soaks when he/she does get hit. If I can get Dex to 10 instead of 9, that will help out with not getting hit as much too.

As for the vulnerability to Taunt, that's actually a feature rather than a bug for me.


What I thought was mainly about Action Option and Cardplay, but those info still helps. Thanks.
(Maybe Card-Earning with varieties of Interaction Attacks works a lot...)

mystic101 wrote:"Fire Dancer" seemed to pair rather well with the official "Torch Singer" archetype, heh, but I can understand thinking it's too generic. I'm open to any good title suggestions from anyone.


"Whirling Firestarter" and "Tanoura Blazer"(considering the word "tanoura" refers to the skirt, and the dance/dancer) came along, but basically it will be a matter of taste...

mystic101 wrote:I used the stats for the riot shield to describe them, so that's the dollar cost I'd start with, until I get any official feedback about whether it's even approved or not. However, it's such a specialized piece of equipment that I really don't see anyone but a tanoura dancer ever using it, and they'd already start with one without needing to buy it anyway.


I think the drum-shield too trickey and unfamiliar for untrained user, too, unless someone comes up with similar modular shield for different character concept. Or, more likely, another tanoura dancer with different Gear set which needs recalculating everything.
(Tech-23 Fireproof Costume may also have different demand if someone expect it to be somehow more useful than Core Rule Tech-19 suit. is Khopesh listed in NE sourcebook price list?)
Anyway, I'm glad to know the price, and can wait for official conclusion.

And from another post;
mystic101 wrote:I'm also open to suggestions for a better quote. The one I have now is kind of cute, but it's not super witty. If anyone thinks of anything more clever or thematic, feel free to let me know.


I'm not confident about understanding tanoura or Sufism philosophy, but tried to be respectful while conjuring some heroic phrase:

"Whirling represents the cycle of the universe. Do not disturb."
("the cycle of the universe" is just my understanding about Sufi philosophy behind the whirling - assuming that this character has somewhat learned about the philosophy behind the tanoura dance even if being a secular folk-dancer(covered by Scholar instead of Faith)-, but for a Storm Knight it can also be understood as the cycle of possibility between the living and the unliving. Maybe this character has seen thr shocktroopers' bullying as "disturbance", a smaller-scale representation of what the Reality Raiders does on the Earth.)

"Playing a central role is not a self-centered act."
"Good whirling never comes from self-centeredness."
(Admonishing, or taking precautions, about self-centeredness as a dancer and performer, somehow related to Sufism idea about being the "Qutb(Pole or Axis of the Universe)" and self-abandoning)

Sorry for taking long. I hope there's something helpful.

QuarrelBlue
Posts: 21
Joined: Thu Dec 06, 2018 12:09 pm

Re: Nile Backer Archetypes

Postby QuarrelBlue » Mon Jan 14, 2019 3:03 am

mystic101 wrote:I wanted to do something that highlighted the real-life customs and traditions of the region, but that wasn't Ancient Egyptian, so my character is a tanoura dancer. It's an Egyptian folk dance inspired by Sufi "Dervish" whirling:

QuarrelBlue wrote:
mystic101 wrote:I did some research myself, and found a professional(a bellydance costume shop manager who also deals in order-made tanoura costume and is the spouse of a professinal tanoura dancer) to ask on Twitter.


Added info:
She told me about the contact form to the professional tanoura dancer.
(Mr. Said Abdelhady, her spouse)

https://twitter.com/oriental_hanine/sta ... 2925503489
https://www.said-tannoura.com/contact

For further reseach, you can ask the real-life tanoura dancer there via e-mail.
(The in-page mail form has Japanese guidance. "お名前" means "Your Name", "メールアドレス" means "Your E-mail Address", "件名" means "Subject", and "メッセージ" means "message".)

mystic101
Posts: 239
Joined: Mon Oct 16, 2017 11:13 am

Re: Nile Backer Archetypes

Postby mystic101 » Tue Jan 15, 2019 3:24 am

QuarrelBlue wrote:
mystic101 wrote:I don't know what the dancing discs are actually called.


Now I see what you mean.
I did some research myself, and found a professional(a bellydance costume shop manager who also deals in order-made tanoura costume and is the spouse of a professinal tanoura dancer) to ask on Twitter.
She says it is called "dof".(Named as a kind of frame drum, but those tanoura dancing prop dofs are not for playing music)


Wow, thank you for looking into it! You got an Outstanding result on this find check, for sure. :) I'll let the design team know what you've uncovered, so they can update the archetype with the new info.

QuarrelBlue wrote:Even with skirts alone, crafty players will come up with lots of tricks to blind, misguide, ensnare, and outwit enemies.
And with those dofs and little stage gimmicks, witty players can do quite a show...


That's what I'm hoping. A little research can really pay off for a prospective player, and give them a wealth of things to try in-game.

mystic101 wrote:If there was more space on the character sheet for descriptive fluff, I'd put something in there to the effect that the ability to do non-lethal damage could be "due to miraculous blessings, magical alteration, technological modifications, or simply intense, dedicated training". That way the player would get to decide how and why it's non-lethal.


QuarrelBlue wrote:[What I'm worrying is that different rationale other than simple "special training/knack" may need different game data, since miraculous blessings, magical alteration, and technological modifications are all supported with different Axioms.


This is something I thought the player and storyteller would work out between themselves, in order to ensure that the rationale the player selects is axiomatically appropriate. A Nile character, for example, would have lots of options: magical, spiritual, weird science, or training. Someone from Aysle should probably only have magical, spiritual, or training rationales. And someone from the Living Land would probably have to be content with just the spiritual or training explanations, etc.

QuarrelBlue wrote:(To tell the truth, my ultimate thought about this Perk is "What if a character with this Perk finds a nuclear bomb, and decide to detonate it AS NON-LETHAL ATTACK?"...Yes, I know, Weapons of Mass Destruction are usually resolved as Plot Devices rather than actual weapons, but there's always a possibility(and less extreme but still dangerous cases)...)


Well, to that I'd say:
1. As you said, nuclear bombs aren't pc weapons in Torg, they're plot devices, so the perk shouldn't apply.
2. In-game, I'd have a hard time coming up with a plausible, axiomatic reason for a devastatingly destructive thermonuclear event to, well, not be devastatingly destructive. So the storyteller is justified in saying that it wouldn't fit in with how their world works in-game.
3. Out-of-game, every rule has to pass muster with a storyteller's reasonable interpretation in regards to gameplay and game balance, and I'd think most storytellers would reasonably rule against it working for those reasons, too. I'd expect most reasonable players to have no problem with that ruling, either.

QuarrelBlue wrote:What I thought was mainly about Action Option and Cardplay, but those info still helps. Thanks.
(Maybe Card-Earning with varieties of Interaction Attacks works a lot...)


Ah, I see. Well, I made the character decent at performing three out of the four different possible interactions, so they've got some options. Their attack values aren't too bad, either, so taking a -2 to do a multi-action with one of those three interactions while also simultaneously attacking at the same time shouldn't be too hard, so they've got some decent action economy.

QuarrelBlue wrote:(Tech-23 Fireproof Costume may also have different demand if someone expect it to be somehow more useful than Core Rule Tech-19 suit. is Khopesh listed in NE sourcebook price list?)


The Khopesh is in the new Nile sourcebook, yes. I made the costume tech 23 instead of 19, which is how it's listed in the core book, because of fabrication differences rather than functional differences. Stat-wise it's not any better, but the higher tech level lets the flame retardant materal look and feel more like normal cloth, and lets it hold brighter colors and contain more intricate patterns, than the plain burlap-and-rubber look of early firefighter outfits. I know they can do that kind of thing at tech 23, but I don't think they were able to do it at tech 19. I didn't research if it was possible at a tech level between 19 and 23, but there are no cosms right now with a tech level higher than the Nile but less than Core Earth's anyway, so for simplicity's sake I just set it at Core Earth's 23.

One could argue that, unlike a heavy firefighter outfit, a cloth dancing costume that was chemically treated to be flame-retardant wouldn't merit a Fatigue penalty. Maybe so. On the other hand, I can see how doing strenuous exertion under big, multiple layers of fabric could still lead to overheating, especially in a hot climate like the Nile, so I erred on the side of caution. If the designers end up deciding it doesn't need the Fatigue penalty, though, I won't complain.

QuarrelBlue wrote:Sorry for taking long. I hope there's something helpful.


It definitely was! Thank you again for taking the time to think about all this, and to do all that research into the archetype. I appreciate the feedback, and I'm glad it was of interest to you.


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