DISREGARD Re: Range and LOS of spells etc.

utsukushi
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Re: New ruling: Spells, miracles, psionic powers end if the target gets out of range or line of sight.

Postby utsukushi » Fri Apr 05, 2019 12:41 pm

This has been like a super-busy few minutes while I was typing this up! And Sir Awesome already covered a lot of what I did, but, um, this was a lot of writing, so I'm going ahead anyway. ;)

Savioronedge wrote:I might be interested to know exactly what powers this would effect. I can't think of very many.


Detect Magic - is probably fine; I kind of like the idea of sensing magic through physical barriers in some situations, but not others. This ruling does make it an absolute no, though.

Diminish - bugs me; I can see the earlier point about Concentration, but Duration should trump Range. If someone casts Diminish on my Elven Archer 40 meters away, she shouldn't be able to step backwards, break the spell, and then step forward and start shooting again.

Enhance - likewise; this just feels to me like one where the Range is meant to *establish* the effect, and you certainly shouldn't have to actually keep your eye on them the whole time.

Mage Hands - Range was already an absolute limit on this effect, since it stays centered on the caster, but Line of Sight is interesting. You'd have been dealing with full Concealment penalties trying to send your invisible hands around a corner to do anything, but it's an interesting idea and I'm not sure it should be impossible.

Mage Light - Amusingly enough, becomes impossible to cast anywhere you can't already see? Kuildeous's "As the Baseball Flies" interpretation largely cleans this up, at least, but I think Sunrunner has a point -- Kuildeous and Gargoyle are experienced GMs making experienced-GM-rulings, and that's not the same as the Devs declaring a rule.

...Pathfinder? I mean, I could certainly argue that the spell is cast purely on the magician, and its Range is effectively "inside-out", but for a mechanically simple game like Eternity that's a weird ruling to have to make. I'd rather not have to make it, but without it, Pathfinder can only lead you to an object you're already looking at. :lol:

Protective Circle - at least brings up the Darkness question, especially since a lot of the things you'd like to keep out with it use Darkness.

Scrambler - Actually feels more like an effect centered around the caster to me, but it's odd; I'm not sure if it's meant to move with you, or if it affects surveillance in an area around you as of the time you cast it. If it's the latter, this might mean it can basically only confuse cameras that have already seen you? The description talks more about affecting those in the area, not the surveillance systems, but it certainly means you can't cast it and then let your sneaky friend go in through the window to unlock the door from everyone, because you would lose line of sight in the meantime even if they stay in range.

...OK, I'm just going to accept that Scry creates its own Line of Sight, though it doesn't establish it the way Clairvoyance does.

Slow - again, can now be escaped by ducking behind a barrier or moving a little ways away. (It at least makes moving away harder, but if they're already near the edge it won't take much)

Bless - Requires the group to stay very tightly bunched, or your gods forget about them.

Commune with Animals - seems totally legit; that should certainly only work on animals currently in range. Sight has a few problems (like the traditional calling to local animals from inside your prison cell; if you don't get animals that can reach the window, you won't be able to talk to them.)

Commune with Spirits - even moreso, seems completely OK.

Curse - "I have hexed you to have terrible luck that shall follow you to the end of the hallway!" Again, broken if they move away a bit.

Repel - Makes total sense, though I wouldn't think even total Invisibility or Darkness should affect this.

Ward Enemy - like Protective Circle, brings up the Darkness question, but otherwise doesn't cause any trouble.

Awareness - I totally agree with, but this seems to be in its description; "+1 to the psi's physical defenses, and those of all her companions in range." That seems to suggest that as long as she's maintaining Concentration, as allies move in and out of range they will gain and lose the effect, and considering what it does, that makes perfect sense.

Clairvoyance - Is impacted in the sense that it just got a lot more powerful. Which I'm not actually unhappy about; it's a nifty concept.

Cloud Mind - much like Awareness, makes sense because of how it works.

Confusion - Like Curse/Bless and Diminish/Enhance, it doesn't seem right that stumbling out of Range should cancel the Duration.

Copycat - So if you and your target move away from each other, you lose the skill immediately?

Mind Control - Has been mentioned as something that could actually benefit from this limit, and I don't disagree - I think most GMs would actually have ruled that anyway, at least with the Range. I don't think it's unreasonable to expect someone to Mind Control a security guard to go back into the room and call them in, and that might break Line of Sight, and I'm not sure it should end the effect... but maybe it should.
BUT...Mind Control is actually one of the powers least impacted by this, because it is Telepathy, and so is Clairvoyance. If you're good enough to use Mind Control, you can do Clairvoyance in Round 2 with the -2 Concentration Penalty (you're already not being subtle, so who cares if they know?
And we already know your Telepathy is at least a 16.) And then you can puppet them wherever they go up to 100km.

Read Mind - should totally be range limited, though again, I can see cases where it would be cool and, IMO, should be allowed, to work without LOS.

Strangle - Can be escaped by running away, but I'm good with that. As far as I can tell, there's otherwise technically no way to stop Strangle once it's established (well, Cleanse, but who keeps Cleanse around?)

Telekinesis - Like Mage Hands, I kind of feel like with the penalties for working blind, it should be possible to move something around a corner without dropping it... but unlike Mage Hands, I feel like Telekinesis does plenty anyway and, like a lot of the Psionic powers, its flavor is more... "personal", I guess? So I'm not unhappy with it either way.

Telepathy - Range of 1 kilometer, but only Line of Sight? Also has the line in it clarifying that the people she can see do have to be in Line of Sight if she's unfamiliar with them. Unstated is the case that she can therefor contact people she is familiar with outside of that, and that nobody has to stay in Line of Sight to maintain the effect, which suggests that those are default assumptions.


...In other words, it makes perfect sense in some places and doesn't in others, and the simple truth is, I don't dislike this ruling entirely in itself. What I dislike is it being an Official Ruling, because as Sunrunner points out, that makes it more absolute. We've had a lot of questions that have been answered, "GM's Call", and generally with good reason. I feel like this was a slightly fuzzy area that should be left GM's Call, because there are a lot of situational elements to it between different powers and different, um, situations, where sometimes range and LOS should be absolute and sometimes they shouldn't.

I think Gargoyle and Kuildeous have a perfectly good point, but I also think a few days ago we didn't need experienced GM's to say, "Well, obviously it's not exactly that," because nobody had said it was.

Thank you. I hope you'll all join me in the next room for donuts and cookies, not least because I'm really hoping somebody snuck some donuts and cookies into the next room while I was writing this. I mean... it'd be super creepy, but still nice.

Sunrunner
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Re: New ruling: Spells, miracles, psionic powers end if the target gets out of range or line of sight.

Postby Sunrunner » Fri Apr 05, 2019 1:46 pm

I am an experienced player, I know the exact rules they are referencing with Line of effect in D&D and Pathfinder. The problems that are being brought up are exactly what the Line of Effect rules are there to handle in those games. They realized pretty quickly that alot of spells and abilities become useless if they are limited by LOS, hence the LOE rules. The problem I have here is alot of experienced GM handwavium can fix alot of things, but there are alot of NOT EXPERIENCED GMs and players out there, and as soon as you get something that is as open to interpretation as this is potentially going to be it causes problems. Rules are not gonna cover everything, but part of writing good rules is to cover most of the obvious problems and situations. This ruling is opening pandoras box with your GM cause depending on how they see or chose to rule certain spells and abilities go from being awesome or very useful to WTF did I even bother taking them they are a waste of ink on my character sheet. There are some things that are always going to be in the GM's perview, but this is putting a little too much in the GM's perview with no clear guidance, so players can get very unpleasantly surprised the next time they go to a convention as sit down to a new table for example.

Its also a problem because its an official ruling which means when some one goes hmm how does this work, Google will land them on that rule and I doubt the FAQ is going to have the pages of discussion its going to generate here attached to it.

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Matthew Surridge
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Re: New ruling: Spells, miracles, psionic powers end if the target gets out of range or line of sight.

Postby Matthew Surridge » Fri Apr 05, 2019 2:17 pm

Maybe it's just something that hasn't come up in my game, but — I'm wondering what problem this ruling's designed to solve. What prompted the call?
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My Torg Eternity review, part one and part two

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TorgHacker
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Re: DISREGARD Re: Range and LOS of spells etc.

Postby TorgHacker » Fri Apr 05, 2019 6:08 pm

So, disregard this ruling.

Though some additional clarification:

Casting a spell/miracle/psionic power requires the target(s) to be in range, and within line of sight.

A spell/miracle/psionic power is maintained until the duration ends, or Concentration is broken.

Additional clarification on Concentration: When forced to make a Concentration test, if the target of a spell is out of LOS or out of range, the spell effect ends regardless of the result of the Concentration test.

I don't want to go into details on what this was caused by other than to say it was part of the sausage making process of splat books.
Deanna Gilbert
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Staffan
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Re: DISREGARD Re: Range and LOS of spells etc.

Postby Staffan » Fri Apr 05, 2019 6:30 pm

TorgHacker wrote:I don't want to go into details on what this was caused by other than to say it was part of the sausage making process of splat books.

No one really knows how the game is played
The art of the trade
How the sausage gets made
We just assume that it happens
But no one else is in
The room where it happens

utsukushi
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Re: DISREGARD Re: Range and LOS of spells etc.

Postby utsukushi » Fri Apr 05, 2019 11:39 pm

Innnteresting...

Thank you for the update!

Sunrunner
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Re: DISREGARD Re: Range and LOS of spells etc.

Postby Sunrunner » Sun Apr 07, 2019 3:28 pm

Thanks for the update, this is workable with loads of problems!

TorgHacker wrote:So, disregard this ruling.

Though some additional clarification:

Casting a spell/miracle/psionic power requires the target(s) to be in range, and within line of sight.

A spell/miracle/psionic power is maintained until the duration ends, or Concentration is broken.

Additional clarification on Concentration: When forced to make a Concentration test, if the target of a spell is out of LOS or out of range, the spell effect ends regardless of the result of the Concentration test.

I don't want to go into details on what this was caused by other than to say it was part of the sausage making process of splat books.

vaminion
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Re: DISREGARD Re: Range and LOS of spells etc.

Postby vaminion » Thu Apr 11, 2019 10:01 am

TorgHacker wrote:Additional clarification on Concentration: When forced to make a Concentration test, if the target of a spell is out of LOS or out of range, the spell effect ends regardless of the result of the Concentration test.


A friend of mine and I were discussing how this works with interaction attacks. That brought up two questions.

A successful interaction attack forces the caster to make a Concentration check. Say I'm concentrating on Strangling Bob. He rolls a Player's call on the interaction attack. Can Bob say he's temporarily blinded me, thus breaking Strangle? I'm blinded (presumably that would mean no LoS), and a Concentration check is triggered by the interaction attack. So it would follow that Strangle immediately drops.

As a follow up. I'm using Telekinesis to levitate Bob so he can pick the lock on a second story window. Say a baddie somehow breaks my LoS to Bob and forces a concentration check. Does Telekinesis end entirely or do I just drop Bob?

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TorgHacker
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Re: DISREGARD Re: Range and LOS of spells etc.

Postby TorgHacker » Thu Apr 11, 2019 10:21 am

vaminion wrote:
TorgHacker wrote:Additional clarification on Concentration: When forced to make a Concentration test, if the target of a spell is out of LOS or out of range, the spell effect ends regardless of the result of the Concentration test.


A friend of mine and I were discussing how this works with interaction attacks. That brought up two questions.

A successful interaction attack forces the caster to make a Concentration check. Say I'm concentrating on Strangling Bob. He rolls a Player's call on the interaction attack. Can Bob say he's temporarily blinded me, thus breaking Strangle? I'm blinded (presumably that would mean no LoS), and a Concentration check is triggered by the interaction attack. So it would follow that Strangle immediately drops.



Yep, that's a totally valid Player's Call.


As a follow up. I'm using Telekinesis to levitate Bob so he can pick the lock on a second story window. Say a baddie somehow breaks my LoS to Bob and forces a concentration check. Does Telekinesis end entirely or do I just drop Bob?


Okay, to be clear, the breaking LoS doesn't _force_ the Concentration test. You only check the LoS requirement when a Concentration test is made. This avoids the "I duck behind a rock" tactic.

But if this is the case, then Bob gets dropped, no matter what the result of the Concentration test is. I can see how this is unclear in the wording though, so I'll tweak it.
Deanna Gilbert
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vaminion
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Re: DISREGARD Re: Range and LOS of spells etc.

Postby vaminion » Thu Apr 11, 2019 10:54 am

TorgHacker wrote:Okay, to be clear, the breaking LoS doesn't _force_ the Concentration test. You only check the LoS requirement when a Concentration test is made. This avoids the "I duck behind a rock" tactic.


I was thinking something like the bad guy drops a smoke bomb between me and Bob and then shoots me or something.

But if this is the case, then Bob gets dropped, no matter what the result of the Concentration test is. I can see how this is unclear in the wording though, so I'll tweak it.


Does Telekinesis end? I'm assuming not given the wording on it.

Presumably combining Cloud Mind and an attack roll would also end a Concentration power targeting the psi.


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