Starting with No tradition

videopete
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Starting with No tradition

Postby videopete » Tue Sep 05, 2017 11:51 pm

Not every magic user is trained at the guild, but what if I want to play the hopeful future apprentice. Not trained but the potential is there. Does this mean I have to buy the tradition right out the gate and not invest skills in it?

Shinxirus
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Re: Starting with No tradition

Postby Shinxirus » Wed Sep 06, 2017 4:27 am

If I understand right you want to play a hero with first signs of magic ability, who hasn't yet been sent to an academy, but you still want him to become a guildmage later, right?

Well the first thing you need to know is that in this case your hero is very young. The first signs of mada's spark usually manifest in early childhood. The child's parents will then usually take it to the next academy or private tutor, given that there is one in the respective region. The White and Grey Guild also have their own orders that travel the land seeking out potential candidates. At the academy, the child is tested to see whether the magic potential is strong enough to warrant a later education. The child is then usually sent back with the parents, who are given specific instruction on raising it, until it begins the study of magic at the academy, usually around 9-10 years of age.

The education at the academy is divided in three phases: The first three years form the elevium, during which a scholar is thaught to read and write, as well as math, history and law. Depending on the academy, other subjects are included. However, no magic is thaught in this phase, though every spontaneous manifestation of astral power in a student is carefully documented. The next three years are called the novizium. This is the phase where the actual magical training starts, though the training in this phase mostly consists of meditation and teaching the novice to control the flow of astral energy. Still, some cantrips or simple spells are thaught at this level. The last two years are called studium. Here, the scholar studies the specific spells he or she chose to master, and prepares for the examinatio, the final exams.

So back to your original question. As per core rulebook, a sorcerer must always begin the game with a tradition. However, technically this could be ignored, though the depiction of such a hero would be difficult.

You could play a child that hasn't been sent to an academy or tutor yet. In that case you wouldn't have a tradition, but your magic abilities would be reduced to basically random outburst of weak astral power, without you having much control over them. Not to mention that you're about eight years old.... You could also play a scholar at an academy. In this case, as soon as you enter the novizium, you also have the tradition. That brings the problem, however, that usually scholars are not allowed to leave the academy during their studies, except for occasional short leaves to visit relatives etc.

bluedragon7
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Re: Starting with No tradition

Postby bluedragon7 » Wed Sep 06, 2017 7:19 am

In Aventurian Magic I will be rules for untrained magic users that have none of the normal magical traditions, but even they have a magical tradition: either being an "intuitive spellcaster" having a limited number of spells or being a "master talent" where they use their magic to boost a talent. These are often master craftsmen but also master thieves.
I find it a pity that you can't combine these anymore, in previous editions all intuitive spellcasters could choose to also have up to master talents and even regular spellcasters could have it, at greatly increased cost.
One of my most beloved characters is a charlatan who uses his master talent to convince people to buy shares of an Endurium Mine allegedly located on the tropical island of Benbucula.

Shinxirus
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Re: Starting with No tradition

Postby Shinxirus » Wed Sep 06, 2017 8:34 am

I'm aware of intuitive spellcasters, however, they represent people who either abbandoned their education at some point, or simply don't have enough magical ability to become full mages. They can therefore not become full mages later, which is what videopete asked for. Also, as you said, they have their own tradition, which must be chosen from the beginning just like any other tradition.

bluedragon7
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Re: Starting with No tradition

Postby bluedragon7 » Wed Sep 06, 2017 9:36 am

Intuitive spellcasters could learn more magic in the previous edition, only the necessary special abilities are not common in aventuria, but they can be found in Myranor, so I expect them to become 5th edition rules at some point.

But the presence of the intuitive spellcaster tradition suggests to me that without any tradition no magic would be possible.
You coul use that tradition as a basis for a not-completely-trained-magician tradition to represent an already schooled but not fully developed spellcaster.
Limit the number of spells and modifications, remove the tradition artifacts and cost it at 50-70 AP. Then once you complete your education you pay the difference and become a full Mage

Thrar
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Re: Starting with No tradition

Postby Thrar » Wed Sep 06, 2017 10:20 am

It wouldn't be canon to slowly train a spellcaster as the game progresses, but I don't think it will cause any problems either.

I've done this before with a character who started out as essentially an emotional intuitive caster and slowly grew towards becoming a witch. This formed a significant part of our story and there were certain NPCs who were essential to the character's development by guiding her on her way.

The various special abilities all have an AP cost associated. With our character, we came up with a gradual progression path so they wouldn't have to invest all the AP at once but could gradually spend in increments. We set limits on how much Arcane Power the character could have, how many spells she could know and what the maximum skill rating in any spell could be. Then the player could gradually raise those limits by spending AP towards buying the special abilities ("Spellcaster" and "Tradition: Witch"), until eventually unlocking their full power when the abilities were fully paid off.

By tying this into the story, we were able to share the character's development and witness the key events that led her to become what she is now, while providing a huge amount of backstory hooks for later adventures.
As far as I'm concerned, just go ahead and do it. If you can work it out in a way that works for you and your group then don't let the canon rules hold you back.

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Bosper
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Re: Starting with No tradition

Postby Bosper » Thu Sep 07, 2017 12:48 pm

bluedragon7 wrote:Intuitive spellcasters could learn more magic in the previous edition, only the necessary special abilities are not common in aventuria, but they can be found in Myranor, so I expect them to become 5th edition rules at some point.

But the presence of the intuitive spellcaster tradition suggests to me that without any tradition no magic would be possible.
You coul use that tradition as a basis for a not-completely-trained-magician tradition to represent an already schooled but not fully developed spellcaster.
Limit the number of spells and modifications, remove the tradition artifacts and cost it at 50-70 AP. Then once you complete your education you pay the difference and become a full Mage


The rules are 5th edition already. Just ignore the "intuitive spellcasters cant learn aditional traditions" tadaaa!

bluedragon7
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Re: Starting with No tradition

Postby bluedragon7 » Thu Sep 07, 2017 1:00 pm

I would expect the use of multiple traditions to cost some AP to activate this option. For now and for going from a "not complete spellcaster" tradition (using the intuitive tradition values) to the normal spellcaster tradition I would just charge the cost of the normal spellcaster tradition and reimburse the full cost of the intuitive tradition.

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Bosper
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Re: Starting with No tradition

Postby Bosper » Fri Sep 08, 2017 8:49 am

nope the intuitive spells are still in intuitive tradition. thats a big difference to other traditions versions of spells.

1) cant be modified
2) dont need any words or gestures

he can learn additional (or even the same) spells in the new tradition with the components and techniques required for said tradition

a new tradition just costs as much as it does. There is no extra cost for becoming a blessed one after being a mage, either. its just ridiculously expensive (we just created a blessed elf...damn we ran through AP fast. And we had 1500 to spend)

bluedragon7
Posts: 139
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Re: Starting with No tradition

Postby bluedragon7 » Fri Sep 08, 2017 9:00 am

Please read my posts again.
I was not proposing to start with the intuitive tradition but rather a light version of the full tradition based on the restrictions of the intuitive tradition:
Number of spells limited (for now)
No Modifications (yet)
No rituals (yet)
Once you upgrade to the full tradition the restrictions will be removed. And effectively you would pay the difference between the full and light tradition for the upgrade.

So:
Take the intuitive tradition, cross out its name and call it "witch/mage/druid/elf/whatever light" and use that until you upgrade to the full tradition. The only other change is that you can only choose from the spells available to the tradition you want to upgrade to later in life.


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