Understanding Applications

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JohnK
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Understanding Applications

Postby JohnK » Tue Sep 12, 2017 10:51 pm

Hullo, folks,

Okay, I've read the material on Skills and Applications multiple times, and I still don't get it.

How does one get Applications, how does one use Applications, anything that folks can do to explain the matter of Applications to me would be...most gratefully welcome.

Thanks, in advance. :)
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Thrar
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Re: Understanding Applications

Postby Thrar » Wed Sep 13, 2017 12:37 am

In practice, most of the time they don't seem to matter much. I've only seen two areas where the application is relevant compared to just the base skill:

  1. A player has a skill specialization or other bonus for a specific application
  2. The application is restricted, e.g. a trade secret, and can only be performed by those who know it
In my experience, the former is uncommon and the latter so rare that in my group we've seen it perhaps a handful of times in the year we've been playing.
A case of #1 is for example a character with the Alertness special ability getting a bonus to certain Perception checks when dealing with ambushes.

Shinxirus
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Re: Understanding Applications

Postby Shinxirus » Wed Sep 13, 2017 3:21 am

Applications are - like the rest of the skill system - something that looks very complicated, but actually isn't.

In order to understand this, we must look at three rules elements: Skills, applications, and trade secrets.

First, skills. Those are pretty straightforward, they define the capabilities of a hero in a certain broad area. Next come the applications: they define specific seperate fields in which the skill can be applied (therefore the name). Essentially, applications answer the question "what can I use ths skill for?". For demonstration purposes, let's turn to the ettiquette skill on p. 196 of the core book. There, under the header "Applications", we find Manners, Gossip, Small talk, and Fashion. Those are the applications of the ettiquette skill which are known by default to any new character. Other skills have their default applications noted in the same space.

"But how do I use them?", you ask. Well, when the GM calls for a skill check, he usually defines an application along with the skill such as "You want to entertain the baroness during the ride? That's an ettiquette(Small talk) check." How does that matter? Good news - it usually doesn't. Most of the skill rolls a hero must pass regard a default application he knows anyway, so that part can be ignored. The exception here are players who have bought a skill specialisation. That allows them to choose a known application, and henceforth treat their skill value as 2 higher when a check requires their specialised field.

"But Shinxirus, what if a player want's to succeed on a roll requiring an area of knowledge that isn't covered by his or her default aplications?", I hear you asking. P. 186 specifies that in that case it's up to the GM to either deny the roll, or allow it with a malus of at least 3. Want to change that? That's where new applications come into play. They are bought via advantages or special abilities, and add a new application to a players known applications. An example for ettiquette would be "Heraldry" on p.217 core book. New applications represent knowledge that isn't known to everybody, rather requiring some form of study or education, thus the need to buy them via APs. Lastly, you may come across something called trade secrets. Good news, the second: Those work exactly like new applications, but just give you one very specific way to use them (like a single alchemistic recipee), rather than a broad area.

tempest13
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Re: Understanding Applications

Postby tempest13 » Wed Sep 13, 2017 8:32 am

When the as yet unpublished Aventuria Compendium comes out there are a lot of new applications such as weaponcrafting and ship building that are special abilities that need to be bought before you can use them. Some weapons and ships are also trade secrets.
The Core book is just a basic skeleton to hang all the coming rules on ( if you want to add them).

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JohnK
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Re: Understanding Applications

Postby JohnK » Fri Sep 15, 2017 12:29 pm

Hullo, Thrar,

Thrar wrote:In practice, most of the time they don't seem to matter much. I've only seen two areas where the application is relevant compared to just the base skill:

  1. A player has a skill specialization or other bonus for a specific application
  2. The application is restricted, e.g. a trade secret, and can only be performed by those who know it
In my experience, the former is uncommon and the latter so rare that in my group we've seen it perhaps a handful of times in the year we've been playing.
A case of #1 is for example a character with the Alertness special ability getting a bonus to certain Perception checks when dealing with ambushes.


Hmm, that sort of puts my mind at ease.

Part of me wonders why players will spend APs to gain Special Abilities, other than for the simple reason of it being a Prerequisite for something. Am I wrong about this?
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JohnK
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Re: Understanding Applications

Postby JohnK » Fri Sep 15, 2017 12:33 pm

Hullo, Shinxirus,

Shinxirus wrote:Applications are - like the rest of the skill system - something that looks very complicated, but actually isn't.


Seriously? Could have fooled me.

Shinxirus wrote:In order to understand this, we must look at three rules elements: Skills, applications, and trade secrets.

First, skills. Those are pretty straightforward, they define the capabilities of a hero in a certain broad area. Next come the applications: they define specific seperate fields in which the skill can be applied (therefore the name). Essentially, applications answer the question "what can I use ths skill for?". For demonstration purposes, let's turn to the ettiquette skill on p. 196 of the core book. There, under the header "Applications", we find Manners, Gossip, Small talk, and Fashion. Those are the applications of the ettiquette skill which are known by default to any new character. Other skills have their default applications noted in the same space.


Okay. That gives me a basic idea of what the Applications of Skills are all about. This applies equally well to the Combat SAs and the Magic SAs, I assume?

Shinxirus wrote: "But how do I use them?", you ask. Well, when the GM calls for a skill check, he usually defines an application along with the skill such as "You want to entertain the baroness during the ride? That's an ettiquette(Small talk) check." How does that matter? Good news - it usually doesn't. Most of the skill rolls a hero must pass regard a default application he knows anyway, so that part can be ignored. The exception here are players who have bought a skill specialisation. That allows them to choose a known application, and henceforth treat their skill value as 2 higher when a check requires their specialised field.


Okay, that raises another question? What is a Skill application versus a Skill specialisation? And please give me some examples of both. Thanks. :)

Shinxirus wrote:"But Shinxirus, what if a player want's to succeed on a roll requiring an area of knowledge that isn't covered by his or her default aplications?", I hear you asking. P. 186 specifies that in that case it's up to the GM to either deny the roll, or allow it with a malus of at least 3. Want to change that? That's where new applications come into play. They are bought via advantages or special abilities, and add a new application to a players known applications. An example for ettiquette would be "Heraldry" on p.217 core book. New applications represent knowledge that isn't known to everybody, rather requiring some form of study or education, thus the need to buy them via APs. Lastly, you may come across something called trade secrets. Good news, the second: Those work exactly like new applications, but just give you one very specific way to use them (like a single alchemistic recipee), rather than a broad area.


Thanks for this post, Shinx. It makes some of the aspects and concepts about Applications a bit clearer, but not all.
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JohnK
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Re: Understanding Applications

Postby JohnK » Fri Sep 15, 2017 12:34 pm

Hullo, tempest13,

tempest13 wrote:When the as yet unpublished Aventuria Compendium comes out there are a lot of new applications such as weaponcrafting and ship building that are special abilities that need to be bought before you can use them. Some weapons and ships are also trade secrets.
The Core book is just a basic skeleton to hang all the coming rules on ( if you want to add them).


And yet for all of that, the Applications stuff isn't an optional rule. It's obviously there for a reason, for a purpose. I'm just having trouble figuring out how Applications are...applied, I guess. Let alone how a player notes all of them on their character sheet(s).
=====
"They're High Lords, for God's sake! You can't just walk up to one and say, "How you doing? Feel like dying now?" you know!" - Abraham Horowitz, priest

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e-mail: johnk100@sympatico.ca
blog: http://jkahane.livejournal.com

tempest13
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Re: Understanding Applications

Postby tempest13 » Fri Sep 15, 2017 1:18 pm

You don't note them on the character sheet UNLESS you take a specialization or you buy a non standard application. All the applications listed with the skill (unless noted otherwise (e.g. Heraldry for ettiqette)) are known by everyone. At some point the cost of the overall skill becomes prohibitively expensive or you cannot advance further because the max skill is highest linked attribute plus 2. In those cases you can pick up to 3 applications through the specialization advantage. These give you a further +2 for that application alone.

In summation you do not need to note applications UNLESS you need to buy a modification (i.e. specialization) or a non standard application (e.g Heraldry, or skiing, or weaponcrafting).

If it is a default application everyone has them and uses them at their default skill level unless specialized.

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MadBeard
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Re: Understanding Applications

Postby MadBeard » Fri Sep 15, 2017 2:28 pm

@John

Think of it as application for Perception skill in D&D 5ed or Pathfinder.
Perception is mix of three subskills (applications), Listen, Search and Spot from previous edition. If you put ranks in Perception you automatically improved all of them.

And you could have something that give you bonus or malus just for Listen, for example you ate some herbs/mushrooms that enhance your hearing. So you'll get a bonus just for Perception (Listen) check. Not for Perception (Search or Spot).

Same thing is with TDE. Applications are just various uses of particular skill.

In skill stat block, whatever is listed under "Applications" you already have. This are "subskills" or uses of that skill.

Things listed in "New Applications" are available only if you have listed advantage or special ability. You can't use skill that way unless you have that.
And Skill Specialization special ability give bonus just to one of Application listed for that skill.
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Shinxirus
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Re: Understanding Applications

Postby Shinxirus » Fri Sep 15, 2017 4:34 pm

JohnK wrote:Hullo, Shinxirus,



Okay. That gives me a basic idea of what the Applications of Skills are all about. This applies equally well to the Combat SAs and the Magic SAs, I assume?


Okay, that raises another question? What is a Skill application versus a Skill specialisation? And please give me some examples of both. Thanks. :)


Ah, I can see why my wording may have been confusing. First off, applications only exist within mundane skills - that is, those listed on the second page of the character sheet.

As for noting them, the default apps aren't listed, as they are included in the skill. As for new apps, players simply note the special ability which grants them, not the app itself, as the names are often identical.

A "skill specialisation" refers to the special ability of the same name, which allows a player to spend a certain amount of APs to select a known app and henceforth treat his skill value as 2 higher if the relevant app is involved in a skill check. So "Fashion" is an app of the Ettiquette skill, and if you know it you can spend APs to specialise in the app "Fashion", meaning you get the aforementioned bonus to any Ettiquette(Fashion) check.

Regarding how to "use" apps, they aren't actively used, they merely inform what potential modifiers apply to a check. For example, the skill specialisation in "Fashion" only grants abonus to a Ettiquette(Fashion) check, but not to Ettiquette(Heraldry). Another example, the Advantage "Born Orator" grants a bonus to all Persuasion(public speech) checks, but not to Persuasion(any other app) rolls.

One more thing: Although it may seem counterintuitive, TDE is best learnt by actually playing it (even with incomplete understanding of the rules), rather than just studying the rulebook. Many things that seem strange when just read will suddenly make sense when they come up during play.


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