Understanding Applications

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JohnK
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Re: Understanding Applications

Postby JohnK » Sat Sep 16, 2017 7:23 pm

Hullo, MadBeard,

MadBeard wrote:@John

Think of it as application for Perception skill in D&D 5ed or Pathfinder.


Umm, that doesn't actually help me, since I've not played D&D since version 1.0 (maybe v2.0) and have never played Pathfinder.

MadBeard wrote:Perception is mix of three subskills (applications), Listen, Search and Spot from previous edition. If you put ranks in Perception you automatically improved all of them.

And you could have something that give you bonus or malus just for Listen, for example you ate some herbs/mushrooms that enhance your hearing. So you'll get a bonus just for Perception (Listen) check. Not for Perception (Search or Spot).


Okay, this sort of makes sense.

MadBeard wrote:Same thing is with TDE. Applications are just various uses of particular skill.


So you're saying that if I call for a Skill check using a Skill (Application) that is common, the player will be able to make that roll with the bonus that the Application the Skill gives them?

MadBeard wrote:In skill stat block, whatever is listed under "Applications" you already have. This are "subskills" or uses of that skill.

Things listed in "New Applications" are available only if you have listed advantage or special ability. You can't use skill that way unless you have that.
And Skill Specialization special ability give bonus just to one of Application listed for that skill.


Okay, thanks. That's starting to make a good deal of sense to me now, or at least is giving me a perspective on order of things. :)
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JohnK
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Re: Understanding Applications

Postby JohnK » Sat Sep 16, 2017 7:29 pm

Hullo, Shinxirus,

Shinxirus wrote:
JohnK wrote:Okay. That gives me a basic idea of what the Applications of Skills are all about. This applies equally well to the Combat SAs and the Magic SAs, I assume?

Okay, that raises another question? What is a Skill application versus a Skill specialisation? And please give me some examples of both. Thanks. :)


Ah, I can see why my wording may have been confusing. First off, applications only exist within mundane skills - that is, those listed on the second page of the character sheet.


Check.

Shinxirus wrote:As for noting them, the default apps aren't listed, as they are included in the skill. As for new apps, players simply note the special ability which grants them, not the app itself, as the names are often identical.


Okay, double check. :)

Shinxirus wrote:A "skill specialisation" refers to the special ability of the same name, which allows a player to spend a certain amount of APs to select a known app and henceforth treat his skill value as 2 higher if the relevant app is involved in a skill check. So "Fashion" is an app of the Ettiquette skill, and if you know it you can spend APs to specialise in the app "Fashion", meaning you get the aforementioned bonus to any Ettiquette(Fashion) check.


Okay, check. This makes sense to me now. The trick is that the game uses the term "specialisation" in a different way than many other rpgs out there, fantasy or not. In some ways, the TDE experience has been like learning a whole new game vocabulary.

Shinxirus wrote:Regarding how to "use" apps, they aren't actively used, they merely inform what potential modifiers apply to a check. For example, the skill specialisation in "Fashion" only grants a bonus to a Ettiquette(Fashion) check, but not to Ettiquette(Heraldry). Another example, the Advantage "Born Orator" grants a bonus to all Persuasion(public speech) checks, but not to Persuasion(any other app) rolls.


Okay, check and check. :)

Shinxirus wrote:One more thing: Although it may seem counterintuitive, TDE is best learnt by actually playing it (even with incomplete understanding of the rules), rather than just studying the rulebook. Many things that seem strange when just read will suddenly make sense when they come up during play.


This is something that I've started to notice about the game, but haven't had a chance to run TDE yet. I do know that I'm going to use the basic rules for several game sessions until I see what's what, and then perhaps introduce some optional/house rules.

Experience is the best teacher in this case, for both players and GMs. :)
=====
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MadBeard
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Re: Understanding Applications

Postby MadBeard » Sun Sep 17, 2017 2:10 pm

Because Shinxirus already gave a nice example, I didn't want to write all details. But maybe it will better to explain you in couple of examples.

We will use Perception skill as an example and two characters.

1. Nadarion - Glade elf
SGC = 10
INT = 15
Perception skill rank = 6
Skill Specialization Perception (Spot)

2. Nevinia - Human
SGC = 14
INT = 14
Perception skill rank = 4
Advantage Fox Sense

------------------------------------------------

PERCEPTION
New Application: Fox Sense (see page 165), Lip Reading (see page 217)

Check: SGC/INT/INT

Applications: Detect Ambush, Search, Spot

------------------------------------------------

SKILL SPECIALIZATION (Skill)

Rules: A hero receives a skill rating bonus of 2 when making a check using the application. Heroes can specialize in a maximum of three applications per skill. This application’s bonus can raise the skill’s SR above the normal maximum (as determined by Experience Level during hero creation—see page 39).

Prerequisites: Skill rating 6 (first Specialization), skill rating 12 (second Specialization), Skill Rating 18 (third Specialization)

AP Value: A/B/C/D skill: 1/2/3/4 adventure points for the first Specialization, 2/4/6/8 adventure points for the second Specialization, 3/6/9/12 adventure points for the third Specialization.

------------------------------------------------

FOX SENSE

Rules: The hero can perceive traps that cannot be found with ordinary senses. With this advantage, the hero can use Fox Sense as an application for the skill Perception.

Range: 10 yards

Prerequisites: None

AP Value: 15 adventure points

------------------------------------------------

So this are the stats. Now example:

1.
GM calls for a Perception (Spot) check to see if characters notice the gold coin at the bottom of a lake.

Nadarion rolls against (10/15/15) and have Skill Rank at 8 (6 normal + 2 from his skill specialization)

Nevinia rolls against (14/14/14) and have Skill Rank at 4

For other application (Search and Detect Ambush), Nadarion would have Skill rank at 6. For Spot he have 8 because of Skill Specialization Perception (Spot)
Since Nadarion doesn't have Advantages Fox Sense and Special ability Lip Reading, he can't use Fox Sense and Lip reading application.

2.
Now GM call for a Perception (Fox Sense) because of nearby trap.

Nadarion can't attempt to roll since he doesn't have Fox Sense Advantage, but Nevinia can try to roll since she does have Fox Sense advantage.

Nevinia rolls against (14/14/14) and have Skill Rank at 4

I hope that this explains everything. Like it was said before, applications are just uses of particular skill and for the most time you don't have to worry about it too much. Only if character have Skill specialization or maybe some advantage like Fox Sense or Lip Reading that gives him extra application.
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videopete
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Re: Understanding Applications

Postby videopete » Mon Sep 18, 2017 2:22 am

Can you have only 3 skill specializations totall or is it for 3 applications per skill.

bluedragon7
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Re: Understanding Applications

Postby bluedragon7 » Mon Sep 18, 2017 3:24 am

Per skill

But by the time you could buy your third in a particular skill, your skill rating is usually already high enough you normally don't need it anymore.

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JohnK
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Re: Understanding Applications

Postby JohnK » Mon Sep 18, 2017 12:32 pm

Hullo, MadBeard,

MadBeard wrote:Because Shinxirus already gave a nice example, I didn't want to write all details. But maybe it will better to explain you in couple of examples.

<huge snip and snip]

I hope that this explains everything. Like it was said before, applications are just uses of particular skill and for the most time you don't have to worry about it too much. Only if character have Skill specialization or maybe some advantage like Fox Sense or Lip Reading that gives him extra application.


*Thank you!* very much for posting these examples of how the Applications process is set up and works. Now I have a good understanding of the Applications material.

Again, thank you. :)
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"They're High Lords, for God's sake! You can't just walk up to one and say, "How you doing? Feel like dying now?" you know!" - Abraham Horowitz, priest

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MadBeard
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Re: Understanding Applications

Postby MadBeard » Mon Sep 18, 2017 1:32 pm

JohnK wrote:*Thank you!* very much for posting these examples of how the Applications process is set up and works. Now I have a good understanding of the Applications material.

Again, thank you. :)


No problem John. Glad to help you about that. :)
I'd have to be a warrior, a slave I couldn't be.
A soldier and a conqueror, fighting to be free.

"Warrior" - Wishbone Ash

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JohnK
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Re: Understanding Applications

Postby JohnK » Mon Sep 18, 2017 7:15 pm

Hullo, MadBeard,

MadBeard wrote:
JohnK wrote:*Thank you!* very much for posting these examples of how the Applications process is set up and works. Now I have a good understanding of the Applications material.

Again, thank you. :)


No problem John. Glad to help you about that. :)


Well, that's what these forums are all about, right? Folks helping other folks with the game. And some of you guys and gals have been playing The Dark Eye for a long time... :)
=====
"They're High Lords, for God's sake! You can't just walk up to one and say, "How you doing? Feel like dying now?" you know!" - Abraham Horowitz, priest

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Flash
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Re: Understanding Applications

Postby Flash » Tue Sep 19, 2017 2:19 pm

JohnK wrote:Well, that's what these forums are all about, right? Folks helping other folks with the game. And some of you guys and gals have been playing The Dark Eye for a long time... :)


It are exiting times for us TDE old timers. With TDE now available (or becoming available) again in several languages we have a big influx of new players to the game. A lot of us try to help where we can. It also battles the weariness and jadedness us old times tend to fall prey to after knowing and playing the game for decades.

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JohnK
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Re: Understanding Applications

Postby JohnK » Tue Sep 19, 2017 6:20 pm

Hullo, Flash,

Flash wrote:
JohnK wrote:Well, that's what these forums are all about, right? Folks helping other folks with the game. And some of you guys and gals have been playing The Dark Eye for a long time... :)


It are exiting times for us TDE old timers. With TDE now available (or becoming available) again in several languages we have a big influx of new players to the game. A lot of us try to help where we can. It also battles the weariness and jadedness us old times tend to fall prey to after knowing and playing the game for decades.


I'll bet it's exciting times for the TDE oldtimers. (Just how long have you been playing/running the game, Flash?).

Those who are new to the game, such as myself, are bringing a freshness and renewed vigour about the game with them to the table, and it must do a lot to re-invigorate folks like yourself about the game again.

That said, I've been somewhat intimidated by the sheer amount of material in the Core Rules, let alone the various other books that accompanied the Kickstarter, and there's so much stuff to get one's head around about the game and the world of Aventuria. A fascinating, highly detailed game world that some of us are just coming into.

Thanks to you, and all the other folks, for taking the time to answer my (and the other newcomers) questions about the game, and for the patience you've shown us with stuff as well. :)
=====
"They're High Lords, for God's sake! You can't just walk up to one and say, "How you doing? Feel like dying now?" you know!" - Abraham Horowitz, priest

JohnK
e-mail: johnk100@sympatico.ca
blog: http://jkahane.livejournal.com


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