Rules Clarification on Dilemmas

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Kuildeous
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Re: Rules Clarification on Dilemmas

Postby Kuildeous » Wed Jul 11, 2018 3:44 pm

bchoinski wrote:Just want to make sure I'm understanding DSR properly, especially in the case of as chase.

If the players are just starting, and the card shows "ABC", can they attempt to get to step C in this one go, abet with a -4 modifier for multi action?


I'm starting to get the idea that people are running this differently than I am, but here's my take on it.

Yes, one person doing steps A, B, and C would get -4 to everything as a multi-action.

But…if three people are doing the steps, then there is no penalty.

For example, I may have a DSR where the PCs do the following:
Step A is completed by Alice as she makes her DN 14 find roll to locate the secret door.
Step B is completed by Bob as he makes his DN 12 evidence analysis roll to find and disarm the relatively simple trap.
Step C is completed by Carol as she makes her DN 16 alteration roll to trigger the magical runes.
Step D is not yet available, so David cannot attempt the DN 18 strength roll to lift the door.

I'm not sure if it's RAW, but I wouldn't even let David attempt the roll to draw a card, as I had always interpreted that to mean only for card flips where they cannot make any progress due to the letter placement. As they could complete step C, they're not hosed, so no consolation prize for doing step D.

I may have to reread the DSR section to make sure I've been doing things correctly, but even if I'm wrong, I'm kind of digging what I'm doing, so I may not change


Things can get wonky in my example with partial multi-action. Alice can do Steps A and B at -2, but she cannot do Steps A and C, as her C is predicated on the success of B. I suppose I could let her try it at -2 anyway that might be a waste if B isn't completed, but I think that gets a little too weird.
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TorgHacker
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Re: Rules Clarification on Dilemmas

Postby TorgHacker » Wed Jul 11, 2018 3:52 pm

Kuildeous wrote:
bchoinski wrote:Just want to make sure I'm understanding DSR properly, especially in the case of as chase.

If the players are just starting, and the card shows "ABC", can they attempt to get to step C in this one go, abet with a -4 modifier for multi action?


I'm starting to get the idea that people are running this differently than I am, but here's my take on it.

Yes, one person doing steps A, B, and C would get -4 to everything as a multi-action.

But…if three people are doing the steps, then there is no penalty.



Correct and correct.

Edit: See later. Three people cannot do the steps individually, not in the same round.



For example, I may have a DSR where the PCs do the following:
Step A is completed by Alice as she makes her DN 14 find roll to locate the secret door.
Step B is completed by Bob as he makes his DN 12 evidence analysis roll to find and disarm the relatively simple trap.
Step C is completed by Carol as she makes her DN 16 alteration roll to trigger the magical runes.
Step D is not yet available, so David cannot attempt the DN 18 strength roll to lift the door.

I'm not sure if it's RAW, but I wouldn't even let David attempt the roll to draw a card, as I had always interpreted that to mean only for card flips where they cannot make any progress due to the letter placement. As they could complete step C, they're not hosed, so no consolation prize for doing step D
.

Correct through Step D...however, Skill Use as an Approved Action does cover David's DN 18 Strength test.



I may have to reread the DSR section to make sure I've been doing things correctly, but even if I'm wrong, I'm kind of digging what I'm doing, so I may not change


Things can get wonky in my example with partial multi-action. Alice can do Steps A and B at -2, but she cannot do Steps A and C, as her C is predicated on the success of B. I suppose I could let her try it at -2 anyway that might be a waste if B isn't completed, but I think that gets a little too weird.


Correct. She cannot try Step A and C as a Multi-Action. From page 130: "Each step must be resolved in order, starting with
A and ending with D."
Deanna Gilbert
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Re: Rules Clarification on Dilemmas

Postby TorgHacker » Wed Jul 11, 2018 3:53 pm

bchoinski wrote:Just want to make sure I'm understanding DSR properly, especially in the case of as chase.

If the players are just starting, and the card shows "ABC", can they attempt to get to step C in this one go, abet with a -4 modifier for multi action?


Yes.
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Re: Rules Clarification on Dilemmas

Postby TorgHacker » Wed Jul 11, 2018 9:27 pm

Okay, after having a lot of back and forth with Darrell about what exactly the intent and words of the Dramatic Skill Resolution rules, here's the gist.

Only one attempt at a step is possible in a Dramatic Skill Resolution each round.


A character can attempt multiple steps in a round, but only as a Multi-Action, and if other characters want to assist, it must be through a Combined Action. For example, if ABC is showing on the Drama card, Aidan can try all three steps as a Multi-Action at -4, and Tworek and Rama-Tut could assist as a Combined Action (+2 bonus if they're not using Extra Effort). However, a situation where Aidan does A, then Tworek does B, then Rama-Tut does C is not valid.

However, the Last Ditch Effort applies to the entire round when it's done, which is an exception to this rule. So, Last Ditch Effort goes, if that's failed, you go to Step A but still have to finish this round. One person can then try one last time, but of course now there's four steps with the additional -2, so that's a -8 to the test. Possible but really, really hard.

We're going to be posting something in the near future about designing DSRs.

Those who are interested in part of the reasoning (and there was lots of back and forth so I don't really want to go into details), take a look at what the Original Torg Dramatic Skill Resolutions were like, and then compare them to what we have now.
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Re: Rules Clarification on Dilemmas

Postby utsukushi » Wed Jul 11, 2018 11:52 pm

That's how I read it. I was actually just coming to ask about that! You're getting spooky. <grin>

(Also, I think this makes, what, four times in a row now that I've been in agreement with Darrell? My "I stumbled into the Twilight Zone" theory is definitely gaining steam!)

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Re: Rules Clarification on Dilemmas

Postby Kuildeous » Thu Jul 12, 2018 9:11 am

*adds to list of house rules*
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RamblingScribe
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Re: Rules Clarification on Dilemmas

Postby RamblingScribe » Fri Jul 13, 2018 9:21 am

I get where you are coming from with regards to oTorg, but letting multiple players do different steps on the same turns is one of the only ways my group can finish a DSR in 5 turns. Especially since they now use different skills at different steps.

If I have a DSR where step A is use strength to move fallen debris from a security door, step B is to use science to open the housing of the electronic lock, and step C is to use computers to hack the system inside, and three characters, one of whom is strong, the second has high science and the third has high computers, and they decide to multi-action that, do we use the strong player's science and computers assisted by the other two for steps B and C?

I get that you've already had a long discussion on this but DSR has changed so much (and for the better!) that making this one ruling to hearken back to the old version feels out of place to me.

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Re: Rules Clarification on Dilemmas

Postby TorgHacker » Fri Jul 13, 2018 11:30 am

RamblingScribe wrote:
If I have a DSR where step A is use strength to move fallen debris from a security door, step B is to use science to open the housing of the electronic lock, and step C is to use computers to hack the system inside, and three characters, one of whom is strong, the second has high science and the third has high computers, and they decide to multi-action that, do we use the strong player's science and computers assisted by the other two for steps B and C?



You're not forced to use the strong character. Anyone could be the lead character, but would use their skills, with bonuses provided by the other characters through a Combined Action. Now, it probably is worth it for those supporting characters to do Extra Effort since they do have specialties in those skills.
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Re: Rules Clarification on Dilemmas

Postby utsukushi » Sat Jul 14, 2018 2:42 pm

RamblingScribe wrote:I get where you are coming from with regards to oTorg, but letting multiple players do different steps on the same turns is one of the only ways my group can finish a DSR in 5 turns. Especially since they now use different skills at different steps.

It does make it harder, but letting everyone roll every turn makes it much, much too easy. And when your group is trying to cover multiple Steps in one turn, that's like the rounds in a battle where you're setting up for one big shot. You figure out who has the best chance, people join in for Extra Effort, trade cards, you spend a Possibility... I think it's pretty well designed to keep everyone involved even while boiling it down to one person's roll, and it makes it dramatic and exciting instead of just `knocking 'em down'.

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Re: Rules Clarification on Dilemmas

Postby RamblingScribe » Sun Jul 15, 2018 11:23 am

I've been thinking about this some more, and while I don't mean to move goalposts, I think I have a clearer understanding of why I don't like this rule. Plus I found a second issue.

In my above example, I asked if they would be stuck with the strong guy doing all of the steps. I understood at the time that any of them could do it, but used the strong character as the example because tactically that's what I would do. Because if the o erall success is mediocre and the group only succeeds at one of the steps, it needs to be step A so that some progress is made.

So that leads to my new concern. Let's say the wimpy engineer leads the roll and succeeds at step B but the total isn't high enough for step A? I'm assuming it's a failure overall. It just seems weird to me

Anyways, my main issue is that it feels to me like it detracts from the narrative and from the individual players' feeling of contribution. Allowing the engineer to give a +2 to the brute's chance of success at a task that should be the engineer's job (or vice-versa) feels really dissatisfying.

I understand that I can describe the narrative differently from the rules, but it is always better if the rules support the narrative instead of having to be overcome for the narrative.

As far as difficulty and balance goes, cards and possibilities always make judging probabilities hard, but to me it feels like a wash. Letting individuals do individual tasks let's them focus their strengths better, but combined action let's them dump all their bonuses on the one roll.

I honestly would prefer a rule that only one step may be completed each round at all, than that you can complete more than one step, but only by multi-action.

And I know nothing is stopping me from playing my way in my game, but every house rule I make is something I have to keep in mind every time I play at a con, or run a demo, or whatever.

Not the end of the world, I just disagree and want to be clear as to why.


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