Skills cost

Necanthrope
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Skills cost

Postby Necanthrope » Wed Jul 12, 2017 10:55 am

As skills cost 1, then 2, etc....
When you create a new character you can have a max of +3, and at least one add in Reality
so a new PC distibutes 5 skills at +3, the other one 15 skills at +1 (I know I know, extreme examples).
The first character only has to spend 10 Xp to gain all those skills.
The second one must spend 25 XP... the difference is 15 XP, so 3 acts worth.

I as a GM will impose characters an already done distribution to avoid this (like one skill at +3, 4 at +2 etc...)


Also, I don't see characters taking any psionics, miracles or magic perks at character creation, as you just wait a few sessions, get your skill at 5 adds, then learn the corresponding supernatural perk and get all those nice things which ask for a 14, 16 in stat + skill.

This is of course a min-maxing topic, and will not affect every parties, but I will try to adress it in my games.
For the rest, it seems like characters from different cosms are equilibred, so this is a huge improvement, and I hope that i do not sound too negative in my comments, as the core rule pdf is incredibly nice.

V

Hawk Knight
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Re: Skills cost

Postby Hawk Knight » Wed Jul 12, 2017 11:02 am

Were were told previously that +3 is maximum in a skill at start and only in one skill at that. Same as oTorg, but I can't actually find that in the book.

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TorgHacker
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Re: Skills cost

Postby TorgHacker » Wed Jul 12, 2017 11:05 am

Under Skills, 3rd paragraph.
Deanna Gilbert
Torg Eternity designer
Ulisses North America

Hawk Knight
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Re: Skills cost

Postby Hawk Knight » Wed Jul 12, 2017 11:12 am

TorgHacker wrote:Under Skills, 3rd paragraph.


Completely missed that because you switched from numeric symbol (3) to word (three). :P
Can you have multiple skills at +3 at start?

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dev/null
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Re: Skills cost

Postby dev/null » Wed Jul 12, 2017 11:13 am

I'm curious what five skills were chosen. At our table, we've got Spells and Psionics covered, but we also seemed to have a slightly more normal spread of skills. I think each took one +3, some +2s and numerous +1s.

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TorgHacker
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Re: Skills cost

Postby TorgHacker » Wed Jul 12, 2017 11:25 am

Hawk Knight wrote:
TorgHacker wrote:Under Skills, 3rd paragraph.


Completely missed that because you switched from numeric symbol (3) to word (three). :P
Can you have multiple skills at +3 at start?


Let me get back to you on that.
Deanna Gilbert
Torg Eternity designer
Ulisses North America

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Rabbitball
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Re: Skills cost

Postby Rabbitball » Wed Jul 12, 2017 11:26 am

Necanthrope wrote:As skills cost 1, then 2, etc....
When you create a new character you can have a max of +3, and at least one add in Reality
so a new PC distibutes 5 skills at +3, the other one 15 skills at +1 (I know I know, extreme examples).
The first character only has to spend 10 Xp to gain all those skills.
The second one must spend 25 XP... the difference is 15 XP, so 3 acts worth.


True, but that first character is spending his first act with only five skills, and his second act with only ten. Which five skills are so good that they can sustain an entire character, even for a single act? More specifically, which ones can you afford to leave until later? Interaction skills? Maybe those for which you have a decent underlying attribute, but if you're trying to min-max, you're also taking the 13/12/5/5/5 attribute distribution, so at least 2 of your Interaction skills need to be part of your Five Skills to avoid being "Player's Call"ed into irrelevance.

After that, what defines your character? Do you have powers? That means you have at least skill and a Perk devoted to that. You should also have at least one skill out of Dodge/Melee Weapons/Unarmed Combat so you aren't vulnerable to all forms of attack. This also assumes that Reality is at 1 add, so Soaking might be a problem. Are you sure that's what you want to inflict upon your character?

Necanthrope wrote:Also, I don't see characters taking any psionics, miracles or magic perks at character creation, as you just wait a few sessions, get your skill at 5 adds, then learn the corresponding supernatural perk and get all those nice things which ask for a 14, 16 in stat + skill.


But until then, you have no powers. If you're taking the "Five Skill" approach, it takes three acts to get your first powers, and only if you apply your XP to make that happen instead of getting those 10 skills you didn't take at CharGen so you could pick them up later.

Necanthrope wrote:This is of course a min-maxing topic, and will not affect every parties, but I will try to adress it in my games.
For the rest, it seems like characters from different cosms are equilibred, so this is a huge improvement, and I hope that i do not sound too negative in my comments, as the core rule pdf is incredibly nice.

V


Everything is a choice of what to optimize. If your choice is to optimize XP costs, you do so at the cost of riding around with a flawed character concept for your early career. Maybe later on, when you are building a new character for a Beta Clearance group, you might get away with it, but by then, there will be other things to deal with.
Dominick Riesland, aka Rabbitball
Co-author, Aysle Sourcebook for Torg Eternity
Creator of the Cosmversal Grimoire
"Those who will not follow are doomed to lead"—Anarchist, Magic: the Gathering

Hawk Knight
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Re: Skills cost

Postby Hawk Knight » Wed Jul 12, 2017 11:32 am

I just don't see the advantage of min-maxing in this system. The benefits don't outweigh the disadvantages and are not that significant. This is a linear success system, not a curve, so a +3 in one skill is not that much better then +1 in 3 skills. Except your 1 signature skill maybe.

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Kuildeous
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Re: Skills cost

Postby Kuildeous » Wed Jul 12, 2017 12:10 pm

Min-maxing attributes works only if there is a dump stat. In D&D, the big dumb fighter can get away with dumping Int or Cha. A wizard can dump Str or Cha.

In TorgE, there are only five attributes and they all do something:

Strength: Melee damage sure, but it also counts against you for Death & Dying tests.
Dexterity: Not getting hit.
Mind: Not getting tricked. Find is based on this.
Charisma: Falling below 5 due to Corruption tests will remove your character. Also, avoid getting taunted.
Spirit: Maximum shock, reality score, Death & Dying tests, avoid getting intimidated, willpower versus spells and psionics.


Of those stats, I might be tempted to say that Mind is the only dump stat. And even then, getting tricked is not great. Who wants to be Very Vulnerable for the entire combat?

Skills and perks could be min-maxed, but attributes not really.
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TorgHacker
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Re: Skills cost

Postby TorgHacker » Wed Jul 12, 2017 12:29 pm

Yes, you could go with five +3 skills at the start.

We feel this is one of those things that looks great on paper, but over time is less of an issue, and in the meantime you're not as effective (or more vulnerable) in ways that might not be obvious.
Deanna Gilbert
Torg Eternity designer
Ulisses North America


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