Spell and Miracle perks underwhelming?

MAJT

Spell and Miracle perks underwhelming?

Postby MAJT » Thu Jul 13, 2017 3:58 pm

I really like the way they did the rules of perks overall.

But discussing character options with players makes me feel that the magic and faith perks - specifically the way you get spells - is kinda underwhelming...

Maybe we're just used to the original game, but getting one spell per perk -with swiftly escalating costs - doesn't seem worth it.

Also, players are used to playing D&D spellcasters with lots of options. That's a big draw of being a spellcaster in the first place.

It strikes me that having more spells doesn't really make the character more powerful... It just gives them more options.

I've been toying with the idea of making the subsequent 'extra levels' to an existing perk cheaper. Or maybe allowing three spells per perk, like the first one gives? It feels really weird to have to pay more XP to get less utility from it. And seems ill-fitting when -for the most part - spells is all a caster really has.

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Hobbes
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Re: Spell and Miracle perks underwhelming?

Postby Hobbes » Thu Jul 13, 2017 4:26 pm

Miracles and Spellcasting perks, when combined with the right stats and skills, are pretty much the third and fourth most powerful perks behind Super Attribute and Super Skill from Nile.

They are absolutely a huge step down from the oTorg spellcasting and Miracles, but those were stupid OP on the right character.

Anyway, if you want the Spells and Miracles Perk to give out more, then give out more. Hand out 5 or 10 each time someone takes the Perk. Or just give every Spellcaster a Spellbook and every Cleric access to the entire list. It really won't make much difference, players tend to use the same spells over and over even when they have dozens to pick from.

Where you could get into trouble is if enough Spells and/or Miracles become available to your players that they could completely blow off everything but the Spellcasting and Faith skills and stats and just resolve every dice roll with some kind of spell. Which was totally a thing in oTorg that happened.

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bchoinski
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Re: Spell and Miracle perks underwhelming?

Postby bchoinski » Thu Jul 13, 2017 4:30 pm

It does seem a bit much once you have the skills to cast magic, and starter spell set, that each progressively more expensive perk gets you less bang for the buck -- you already know the words and moves, you just need to learn the patterns for new spells using your existing knowledge.

Personally, I would think that 2XP per additional spell would, as you say ,provide more options not necessarily make them more powerful, since they are just expanding their library, but not increasing their actual value in one of 4 skills.

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Re: Spell and Miracle perks underwhelming?

Postby ZorValachan » Thu Jul 13, 2017 4:46 pm

I almost made a thread yesterday with the same thing.. underwhelming. It's what is preventing me from jumping into TE feet first.

I don't see how super attribute and super skill are OP here. +1 isn't that big and a limit of 1. OT was +3 and you can do it multiple times.

The system uses almost the same bonus chat, but TE has a lower base and +s for weapons and armor.

The perks based off subsystems seemed lowered a lot. The others not based on subsystems seem awesome.

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torgs with the other.
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Faerol
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Re: Spell and Miracle perks underwhelming?

Postby Faerol » Thu Jul 13, 2017 4:55 pm

Pardon what may be a stupid question... Am I reading the perk rules for adding spells and miracles correctly?
First perk gets you the ability and 3 spells/miracles for 5pts, and the second costs you 7pts for one spell(and then 9, etc.)?

If correct, that seems... a little steep in cost. Obviously I need to to play before jumping to judgement, but just my first impression on reading the PDF.

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TorgHacker
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Re: Spell and Miracle perks underwhelming?

Postby TorgHacker » Thu Jul 13, 2017 5:05 pm

You start with 2 Perks. But yes.
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Faerol
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Re: Spell and Miracle perks underwhelming?

Postby Faerol » Thu Jul 13, 2017 5:10 pm

Interesting, so Torg spellcasters are now more like D&D sorcerers. Well that is quite a departure from oTorg.

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Hobbes
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Re: Spell and Miracle perks underwhelming?

Postby Hobbes » Thu Jul 13, 2017 5:16 pm

ZorValachan wrote:
I don't see how super attribute and super skill are OP here. +1 isn't that big and a limit of 1. OT was +3 and you can do it multiple times.


Off topic, but Super Skill and Super Attribute provide greater benefits compared to other Perks, significantly greater if you take some limitations. I wouldn't call them OP, but they are strictly better than the other perks. Carry on.

MAJT

Re: Spell and Miracle perks underwhelming?

Postby MAJT » Thu Jul 13, 2017 5:32 pm

Hobbes wrote:Off topic, but Super Skill and Super Attribute provide greater benefits compared to other Perks, significantly greater if you take some limitations. I wouldn't call them OP, but they are strictly better than the other perks.


Yes, but you cannot take them AT ALL unless you're Nile. So no joy for your Aysle mage or whatever.

(And my players will prefer the Powers because they're just cooler. )

MAJT

Re: Spell and Miracle perks underwhelming?

Postby MAJT » Thu Jul 13, 2017 5:38 pm

TorgHacker wrote:You start with 2 Perks. But yes.


Was there a specific deign reason why mages/psis/priests would now have a much smaller pool of powers than before?

To me, having more options doesn't make a character intrinsically more powerful, it just gives them more choices really. Many spells are kinda specific anyway and won't see a lot of use.

Whereas you can stack Pulp Power perks, say, to make each one better. You can't really do that with spells.

I don't see it would be unbalancing to offer more options... or am I missing something?

(And yes, I'm sure dirty munchkins came up with broken combinations in the original game, but I'm not talking about the original game, I'm talking about the ones in the TE core book, not of which seem game-breaking to me).


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