Spell and Miracle perks underwhelming?

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Rabbitball
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Re: Spell and Miracle perks underwhelming?

Postby Rabbitball » Fri Jul 14, 2017 3:50 pm

Faerol wrote:I'm coming around to the perk idea for magic in Torg... at least while we wait for the cosm books to come out. However, since that's many months away(and that's just for Living Land, who knows when the Aysle book will be out), I think I'll have to house rule some advanced perks for my players.

I'm thinking that bringing back the arcane knowledges as perks might work. Each one grants you some number of starting spells(1-3) within that arcane knowledge and each time you buy it you can pick another spell for that arcane knowledge(providing you meet any specific spell requirements). I'm already planning on putting together a list of spells from the oTorg Aysle and Pixaud books(after revising of course), so that should give players a nice selection.

Adding the arcane knowleges as perks, will also give magic(Ayslish magic anyway, a little more flavor and some nostalgia)

I don't think that will unbalance my game too much while I wait for cosm books.


As a general rule, how many people are likely to take spells like speak with avian or multiply fish?
Dominick Riesland, aka Rabbitball
Co-author, Aysle Sourcebook for Torg Eternity
Creator of the Cosmversal Grimoire
"Those who will not follow are doomed to lead"—Anarchist, Magic: the Gathering

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Re: Spell and Miracle perks underwhelming?

Postby TorgHacker » Fri Jul 14, 2017 3:51 pm

utsukushi wrote:
So I'm still upset that magic, miracles, and psionics are all so similar when I think they could have started differentiating them right off the bat. I'd have rather had more spells that were less powerful, fewer Miracles that were more powerful, and fewer Psionics that were easier to use -- or, really, just anything that wasn't the exact same rules across all three.

Definitely one of those times where it feels better to be wrong.


We knew that this would be controversial, but one of the primary complaints about Torg from players who barely played was that the different systems were so different. Which meant that these were going to be more unified and YMMV with respect to how that worked out.

However, we're looking into bringing more variety into them through the cosm books, though again, YMMV.
Deanna Gilbert
Torg Eternity designer
Ulisses North America

Faerol
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Re: Spell and Miracle perks underwhelming?

Postby Faerol » Fri Jul 14, 2017 3:59 pm

Rabbitball wrote:As a general rule, how many people are likely to take spells like speak with avian or multiply fish?


Ha! I didn't say it was the best solution, but I already have people asking me about character advancement and spell use in particular(and miracles to a lesser degree). So I'm going to want to put something in place, and using arcane knowledges as perks at least will be familiar.

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Re: Spell and Miracle perks underwhelming?

Postby Rabbitball » Fri Jul 14, 2017 4:03 pm

Faerol wrote:
Rabbitball wrote:As a general rule, how many people are likely to take spells like speak with avian or multiply fish?


Ha! I didn't say it was the best solution, but I already have people asking me about character advancement and spell use in particular(and miracles to a lesser degree). So I'm going to want to put something in place, and using arcane knowledges as perks at least will be familiar.


I'm asking because the general sentiment I'm getting is that the situation in Eternity is more desperate, and as such, there is less "tolerance" for putting in things that are likely to be a waste of space. If a villain needs a spell (like dark persuasion or possession), they can just be added to the adventure, but something that's just flavor won't be in because the book space is needed for things that are likely to matter more.
Dominick Riesland, aka Rabbitball
Co-author, Aysle Sourcebook for Torg Eternity
Creator of the Cosmversal Grimoire
"Those who will not follow are doomed to lead"—Anarchist, Magic: the Gathering

Nyarlathotep
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Re: Spell and Miracle perks underwhelming?

Postby Nyarlathotep » Fri Jul 14, 2017 4:13 pm

Maybe it would be a good idea to have some sort of system to cast "on the fly" so to speak, thus allowing that greater range of spells (and giving you those things like Speak With Avian on the rare occasions they are necessary). I vaguely remember that being an option in oTorg, though I could be mis-remembering it. So maybe in the Aysle book?

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Re: Spell and Miracle perks underwhelming?

Postby Faerol » Fri Jul 14, 2017 4:19 pm

Nyarlathotep wrote:Maybe it would be a good idea to have some sort of system to cast "on the fly" so to speak, thus allowing that greater range of spells (and giving you those things like Speak With Avian on the rare occasions they are necessary). I vaguely remember that being an option in oTorg, though I could be mis-remembering it. So maybe in the Aysle book?


Yes! Thanks for the idea. A Cast on the Fly perk is definitely making it into my house rules. Will need to get some play time in before deciding on how exactly that would work, would be easy for it to be overpowered.

And you are right I could easily see something like that being in the Aysle book. I'll cross my fingers for that one.

Faerol
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Re: Spell and Miracle perks underwhelming?

Postby Faerol » Fri Jul 14, 2017 4:21 pm

Rabbitball wrote:I'm asking because the general sentiment I'm getting is that the situation in Eternity is more desperate, and as such, there is less "tolerance" for putting in things that are likely to be a waste of space. If a villain needs a spell (like dark persuasion or possession), they can just be added to the adventure, but something that's just flavor won't be in because the book space is needed for things that are likely to matter more.


The game feels that way to me as well, and I'm fine with the core rule book as is... if I was running a group of people completely new to Torg.

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Re: Spell and Miracle perks underwhelming?

Postby Nyarlathotep » Fri Jul 14, 2017 4:35 pm

Faerol wrote:
Nyarlathotep wrote:Maybe it would be a good idea to have some sort of system to cast "on the fly" so to speak, thus allowing that greater range of spells (and giving you those things like Speak With Avian on the rare occasions they are necessary). I vaguely remember that being an option in oTorg, though I could be mis-remembering it. So maybe in the Aysle book?


Yes! Thanks for the idea. A Cast on the Fly perk is definitely making it into my house rules. Will need to get some play time in before deciding on how exactly that would work, would be easy for it to be overpowered.

And you are right I could easily see something like that being in the Aysle book. I'll cross my fingers for that one.


Don't know if you ever played Ars Magica, but I would steal a page from their playbook. basically, for each magical skill, define what level of skill you need to pull of certain types of effects. i.e. Conjuring up something small and innocous might only require conjuring skill of 8, but something heavily damaging might require a 14 (ala the Lightning Bolt spell in the book). And that would be even easier in Torg since there are only 4 magic skills (as opposed to the 15 or so in Ars Magica). ANd then add a modifier to cast to make it a bit more difficult (to encourage people to not rely on it overmuch, and buy some actual spells).

No idea how that would work out, just brainstorming, but that's where I would start if I wanted to do that.

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Re: Spell and Miracle perks underwhelming?

Postby TorgHacker » Fri Jul 14, 2017 4:47 pm

I don't know that it's because of the war being more desperate. I think it's just that given that these are Perks, and they're not an insignificant investment in XP, they should be worth taking if they're in at all.

YMMV on the 'worth' part obviously though.

On the other hand we also don't want a spell to be a no-brainer.

Like Enhance was for awhile. Whooooooooooooooboy was it a no-brainer for awhile. :-)
Deanna Gilbert
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Ulisses North America

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Re: Spell and Miracle perks underwhelming?

Postby Hobbes » Fri Jul 14, 2017 4:52 pm

Just pointing out, no reason to limit a caster to just Psi or Miracles or Spells, most Cosms support two of them and they all use the same stats. Tharkold Wizard / PSI or Aylse Cleric / Mage are going to have 6 "Spells" and won't be any more MAD than a normal Psi or Mage character.


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