Spell and Miracle perks underwhelming?

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dev/null
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Re: Spell and Miracle perks underwhelming?

Postby dev/null » Fri Jul 14, 2017 7:39 pm

TorgHacker wrote:
It's a value call.

One of the things we didn't want to have happen is people stopping buying skills or attributes and focusing entirely on Perks.

So 5 or 6 spells/miracles/powers seems about right, but we didn't want to say "You can't take anymore ever."

And if you really do want more spells, there'll be those other Perks in the cosm books that will allow you to select more.

As for Beta Clearance and beyond, we'll be addressing that but don't have anything to announce right now.


And while I don't personally want to, or plan, to be all about Perks, Perks are definitely going to be a big thing for most any character that is running around in my head right now. And while slightly off the topic of the thread, it's still kind of related, is that anything you decide for your character as being part of their "build" in regard to Perks is likely to force you down one path, and make it trickier to dabble. I assume this was also intentional, getting characters to basically pick a specialization? Or maybe it's that exact kind of tradeoff, where you are either very specialized, or you are very dabbler-y, and jack-of-all, master-of-none, kind of deal. But definitely see Perks getting cost-prohibitive very quickly, in general, regardless of the path taken. (Note: this is not a negative critique, but observations being discussed.)

I mean, continuing my example, if I go down my spellcaster route, and get 5 spells, Resilient, Elf Sorcerer, and Magister, I've burned ... I think I'm at 32 XP. Spellcaster, Spellcaster (both free), Spellcaster (5), Resilient (7), Elf Sorcerer (9), Magister (11). If I spend other XP on Attributes or Skills, that stops my Perks from getting more expensive until the Cosm book comes out, where I can start spending more to get more than one spell at a time from specialized lists. But this means that, as a Mage, I likely can't or simply won't spend on other Perks (like Light) that might interest me. Basically because I need to keep my future Perk costs down as well.

As higher Clearance levels have not been released, and have some time before they are, is there any chance that we can track our Perks on a per-tier basis? Something like a cost-reset when we hit new tiers for Perk-buying. Not necessarily full reset, and maybe even regardless of existing Perks held.

Alpha: Perks start at 5, increasing by 2 for each additional.
Beta: Perks start at 7 or 9, increasing by 2 for each additional.
Gamma (assuming Greek, rather than phonetic): 9/11/13 depending on previous start/jump rates, increasing per others or maybe even by 3 each.

Obviously, I don't know how this would scale, but there will come a point when a character is going to stop spending on Skills, and move to Perks and Attributes exclusively. And it won't take long before you're looking at Perks being 20+ (think it's around 9th @117 total xp on Perks).

Just some thoughts. I would hope characters are running out of Skills to upgrade by Gamma/Charlie, even if they have gone with 3-4 purchased Perks. But I definitely haven't done all the maths.

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Re: Spell and Miracle perks underwhelming?

Postby dev/null » Fri Jul 14, 2017 7:47 pm

Rabbitball wrote:
Faerol wrote:I'm coming around to the perk idea for magic in Torg... at least while we wait for the cosm books to come out. However, since that's many months away(and that's just for Living Land, who knows when the Aysle book will be out), I think I'll have to house rule some advanced perks for my players.

I'm thinking that bringing back the arcane knowledges as perks might work. Each one grants you some number of starting spells(1-3) within that arcane knowledge and each time you buy it you can pick another spell for that arcane knowledge(providing you meet any specific spell requirements). I'm already planning on putting together a list of spells from the oTorg Aysle and Pixaud books(after revising of course), so that should give players a nice selection.

Adding the arcane knowleges as perks, will also give magic(Ayslish magic anyway, a little more flavor and some nostalgia)

I don't think that will unbalance my game too much while I wait for cosm books.


As a general rule, how many people are likely to take spells like speak with avian or multiply fish?


There's a Miracle for one of these, and a Spell for the other.

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Re: Spell and Miracle perks underwhelming?

Postby dev/null » Fri Jul 14, 2017 7:54 pm

Rabbitball wrote:
utsukushi wrote:
Casting-on-the-fly -- oTorg didn't really have that. It had the ability to modify your spells on-the-fly - like, add to the range but do less damage, or hit harder but risk more Backlash. I'm pretty sure there was nothing to make up a new spell in ten seconds.



It was part of the Aysle Sourcebook, but in order to do that you needed:
  • All four magic skills
  • A player who grokked the spell design system (i.e a medieval philosopher or an object-oriented programmer—for the record, I'm both) :ugeek:
  • A spell effect that was simple enough to not only take a +13 DN on the pattern (to design in 10 seconds as opposed to 1 hour) but also to not need reduction afterward, as you couldn't use anything (even things like gestures or material components) to reduce complexity.

My Compleat Magick of Aysle was planning on relaxing a few of the restrictions, but even so, it was a beast. TorgE solves some of this with the "Improvised X" spells that Ayslish characters can cast simply by virtue of the high Axiom level and a modicum of the correct skill, but trying to design an "on the fly" system that can make a spell that is not only simple enough to design on the fly but also worth the effort to do so will be harder, not easier under TorgE.


Wasn't it under the heading Invitation To Madness? At least in the R&E.

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Re: Spell and Miracle perks underwhelming?

Postby Rabbitball » Fri Jul 14, 2017 8:02 pm

dev/null wrote:Wasn't it under the heading Invitation To Madness? At least in the R&E.


Aysle came first. And the Invitation to Madness is a subspecies of casting on the fly. You got +3 to each of the five subrolls to design the spell, and +3 to the actual casting total, but once you started the process, you were committed to casting the final product, regardless of how much it sucked, and you had to put at least 50% of the complexity total into Backlash.
Dominick Riesland, aka Rabbitball
Co-author, Aysle Sourcebook for Torg Eternity
Creator of the Cosmversal Grimoire
"Those who will not follow are doomed to lead"—Anarchist, Magic: the Gathering

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Re: Spell and Miracle perks underwhelming?

Postby TorgHacker » Fri Jul 14, 2017 8:31 pm

Jim wrote:
Staffan wrote:
TiaMaster wrote:HOLY HELL, where did you see THAT?? I'm assuming that US has a schedule similar to oTorg, so it shouldn't take TOO long.


The devs have said that the current plan, which is of course subject to revision depending on how successful the game is, is to go 4-5 months between Cosm books and to have them published in pretty much the same order as oTORG (Living Land, Nile, Aysle being the first three). I assume that they base that on the October release of the printed material (per the Kickstarter), so LL should come out in February or March, Nile June to August, and Aysle October to January 2019.


I agree with what you've written. It matches the comments they've made elsewhere. The only glimmer of hope in there is that Ross Watson has already been working on the LL and its in development. They may have a PDF of it soon after the Kickstarter, like they did with the core rulebook. That might help a little bit.


To be clear, it's estimated 4-5 months between 'waves' but we haven't really stated what constitutes a wave. It basically depends on what we've got ready, and we don't want to wipe out the writers (or your wallets).

That said, I think you can probably take it as a given that if we're doing the Kickstarter, the PDF will follow really quick afterwards.
Deanna Gilbert
Torg Eternity designer
Ulisses North America

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Re: Spell and Miracle perks underwhelming?

Postby TorgHacker » Fri Jul 14, 2017 8:34 pm

Personally as a GM, even if the rules don't explicitly stated I can rejigger my Perks when a new book comes out, I'd definitely allow it.
Deanna Gilbert
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Ulisses North America

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Re: Spell and Miracle perks underwhelming?

Postby Faerol » Fri Jul 14, 2017 8:54 pm

Rabbitball wrote:
dev/null wrote:Wasn't it under the heading Invitation To Madness? At least in the R&E.


Aysle came first. And the Invitation to Madness is a subspecies of casting on the fly. You got +3 to each of the five subrolls to design the spell, and +3 to the actual casting total, but once you started the process, you were committed to casting the final product, regardless of how much it sucked, and you had to put at least 50% of the complexity total into Backlash.


Actually I was referring to casting on the fly of unlearned grimoire spells or commonly known spells. In the Aysle book a spellcaster could cast such spells simply by increasing backlash and difficulty by 4... at least thats what I remember. The invitation to madness was spell creation on the fly which I wouldn't want to allow players to have without a good balanced system to back it up.

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Re: Spell and Miracle perks underwhelming?

Postby Rabbitball » Fri Jul 14, 2017 8:58 pm

Faerol wrote:Actually I was referring to casting on the fly of unlearned grimoire spells or commonly known spells. In the Aysle book a spellcaster could cast such spells simply by increasing backlash and difficulty by 4... at least thats what I remember. The invitation to madness was spell creation on the fly which I wouldn't want to allow players to have without a good balanced system to back it up.


There are many things you could say about the Aysle spell design system; unbalanced is not one of them. It's too balanced. Practically everything is taken into account, and therein lies the complexity.
Dominick Riesland, aka Rabbitball
Co-author, Aysle Sourcebook for Torg Eternity
Creator of the Cosmversal Grimoire
"Those who will not follow are doomed to lead"—Anarchist, Magic: the Gathering

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Re: Spell and Miracle perks underwhelming?

Postby Faerol » Fri Jul 14, 2017 9:05 pm

Rabbitball wrote:
Faerol wrote:Actually I was referring to casting on the fly of unlearned grimoire spells or commonly known spells. In the Aysle book a spellcaster could cast such spells simply by increasing backlash and difficulty by 4... at least thats what I remember. The invitation to madness was spell creation on the fly which I wouldn't want to allow players to have without a good balanced system to back it up.


There are many things you could say about the Aysle spell design system; unbalanced is not one of them. It's too balanced. Practically everything is taken into account, and therein lies the complexity.


Yes I agree with you. I meant I'm not going to make up a new system for TorgE or try to shoehorn the oTorg system in... at least not without a lot of time and testing.

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Re: Spell and Miracle perks underwhelming?

Postby TorgHacker » Fri Jul 14, 2017 10:17 pm

While we're all discussing casting on the fly I figured I'd better point something out that folks might not have noticed at first.

Creating spells as you cast (ie casting on the fly) is possible at Magic 25.

Aysle is Magic 24.

There is a reason for this...basically we couldn't come up with a good system for doing such a thing at this point, at least not one that we could do in the core book. However, we did want it close enough that some isolated areas of Aysle COULD theoretically do it.
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