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Re: Reconnection is HARD

Posted: Thu Jul 20, 2017 10:23 pm
by Zackzenobi
earlking wrote:
Zackzenobi wrote:Pg 179 says we can't use Hero or Drama cards to reconnect. It does NOT say we can't use Willpower, Action, or Second Chance cards, so they are fair game right?


That's the way I ruled it.


Making them, now the most Valuable cards in the deck!

Re: Reconnection is HARD

Posted: Fri Jul 21, 2017 4:07 am
by utsukushi
The fact that it outright specifies two cards that you can't use definitely suggests that you can use the rest. If you just couldn't use cards, it would have been easier to say that.

Re: Reconnection is HARD

Posted: Fri Jul 21, 2017 4:35 am
by Kanaris
utsukushi wrote:The fact that it outright specifies two cards that you can't use definitely suggests that you can use the rest. If you just couldn't use cards, it would have been easier to say that.

Law school nerds known this rule as "Expressio unius est exclusio alterius" :roll:

Re: Reconnection is HARD

Posted: Fri Jul 21, 2017 6:49 am
by Zackzenobi
Kanaris wrote:
utsukushi wrote:The fact that it outright specifies two cards that you can't use definitely suggests that you can use the rest. If you just couldn't use cards, it would have been easier to say that.

Law school nerds known this rule as "Expressio unius est exclusio alterius" :roll:


Can you break that down for those of us with bachelor's degrees? When I looked it up, I thought it meant NO cards could be used? If that was the intent, why not say ' No Possibilities or Cards could be used"?

Re: Reconnection is HARD

Posted: Fri Jul 21, 2017 6:58 am
by Kuildeous
If you get down to it, it's not specifically excluding cards. It is very broadly stating that Possibilities cannot be used. Then to avoid ambiguity, the rules point out that Possibilities in the form of cards are also disallowed. They could have omitted that line, but some players out there would argue about that, so the line was likely added to nip that in the bud. Presumably, Possibilities from Eternity Shards are also disallowed.

There really is no restriction to the Reality roll. It is just like any other roll with the one exception that Possibilities explicitly cannot be spent on it. But Willpower and Second Chance would be allowed.

I don't think the designers were sitting in their lair going, "Mwahaha, now that you're disconnected, you cannot do anything." Instead, they probably said, "Okay, so disconnected people cannot use their own reality. The flow of Possibility energy is disrupted. Seems like they can't benefit from Possibilities at all until they reconnect. Oh, yeah, those two cards are Possibilities, aren't they? Better clear that up."

Re: Reconnection is HARD

Posted: Fri Jul 21, 2017 8:18 am
by Kanaris
Zackzenobi wrote:
Kanaris wrote:
utsukushi wrote:The fact that it outright specifies two cards that you can't use definitely suggests that you can use the rest. If you just couldn't use cards, it would have been easier to say that.

Law school nerds known this rule as "Expressio unius est exclusio alterius" :roll:


Can you break that down for those of us with bachelor's degrees? When I looked it up, I thought it meant NO cards could be used? If that was the intent, why not say ' No Possibilities or Cards could be used"?


The way I remember the principle, it's that if a rule (usually a clause in a contract or a section of a statute) includes within its scope some examples of one or more kind of thing (in this case Hero & Drama Cards), but not others of that kind (Second Chance, Willpower, Action etc), then you assume the rule (no cards playable during disconnection) is not intended to cover those of that kind (being Drama Cards) it did not mention. The principle (when it applies) applies for exactly the reason that utsukushi said (which is why it came to mind in the first place).

Having said that, I don't generally want to endorse using lawyer's techniques to read gamebooks - I agree that rules lawyers are the worst. The rules should serve the game and not the other way around!

Re: Reconnection is HARD

Posted: Fri Jul 21, 2017 9:03 am
by Gargoyle
Kanaris wrote:
Zackzenobi wrote:
Kanaris wrote:Law school nerds known this rule as "Expressio unius est exclusio alterius" :roll:


Can you break that down for those of us with bachelor's degrees? When I looked it up, I thought it meant NO cards could be used? If that was the intent, why not say ' No Possibilities or Cards could be used"?


The way I remember the principle, it's that if a rule (usually a clause in a contract or a section of a statute) includes within its scope some examples of one or more kind of thing (in this case Hero & Drama Cards), but not others of that kind (Second Chance, Willpower, Action etc), then you assume the rule (no cards playable during disconnection) is not intended to cover those of that kind (being Drama Cards) it did not mention. The principle (when it applies) applies for exactly the reason that utsukushi said (which is why it came to mind in the first place).

Having said that, I don't generally want to endorse using lawyer's techniques to read gamebooks - I agree that rules lawyers are the worst. The rules should serve the game and not the other way around!


I think lawyering is pretty ok fine and dandy on a rules forum, just not at the table during the game. :)

Re: Reconnection is HARD

Posted: Fri Jul 21, 2017 10:07 am
by Hobbes
Gargoyle wrote:
I think lawyering is pretty ok fine and dandy on a rules forum, just not at the table during the game. :)


+1

I enjoy theory crafting and white paper experiments and rules lawyering on forums and before/after the game. When in game if I disagree with a GM I give them my take on the rule in a single sentence, and then accept whatever the GM says. As a GM I give my players about 10 seconds to say what they have to say (I forget rules sometimes, reminders from a player don't hurt), then make my ruling and keep the game moving.

My own personal recommendation is 60 seconds. If you can't recall, can't find, or can't agree in 60 seconds, the GM makes the call, game moves on. If it's important and may come up again, write it down and take it to a rules forum or sit around digging through books trying to find something after the game.

On topic, I agree that the RAI is that no possibilities can be used and the rule is simply pointing out the specific cards that can't be used for the test. Cards that don't spend possibilities can be used, IMO. The possibilities from say a Glory card can't be used either IMO even though it's not specifically called out.

Re: Reconnection is HARD

Posted: Fri Jul 21, 2017 10:22 am
by Kanaris
I have a similar rule - quick discussion in game followed by ruling to be revisited after game. The difference between games lawyering and the real world thing is that in the former, you can change it if you want to whatever the "true" meaning of the words used to express the rule.

With respect to the rule about disconnection, RAI suggests that only the spending of possibilities (including from cards) is prohibited.

Re: Reconnection is HARD

Posted: Fri Jul 21, 2017 10:47 am
by TorgHacker
For the record, yes, you can play cards on a Disconnection...just not the Hero or Drama cards.

As for the Storyteller Perk Q, I'm waiting for Darrell.