Questions about vehicles

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Spatula
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Re: Questions about vehicles

Postby Spatula » Tue Aug 07, 2018 6:46 pm

fougerec wrote:Then again I run my DC like a special forces task force fighting a war on multiple fronts. So the standard loadout for a heavy combat mission may be a rifle, a pistol, 3 magazines for each, a frag grenade, armor and a medkit" and the player may go "ummm...there's technodemons in Tharkhold. Can I maybe get a LAW rocket or two?" The DC provides the gear to perform the assigned mission (and keep the asset safe). Anything else the PCs get on their own. Note though that if they buy that armor on their own, then they would have it for a diplomatic mission as well as a combat mission.


"Can I get a LAW rocket?"

"No. It's a diplomatic mission."

"IN THARKOLD!!!"

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Aenno
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Re: Questions about vehicles

Postby Aenno » Tue Aug 07, 2018 6:56 pm

Spatula wrote:
fougerec wrote:Then again I run my DC like a special forces task force fighting a war on multiple fronts. So the standard loadout for a heavy combat mission may be a rifle, a pistol, 3 magazines for each, a frag grenade, armor and a medkit" and the player may go "ummm...there's technodemons in Tharkhold. Can I maybe get a LAW rocket or two?" The DC provides the gear to perform the assigned mission (and keep the asset safe). Anything else the PCs get on their own. Note though that if they buy that armor on their own, then they would have it for a diplomatic mission as well as a combat mission.


"Can I get a LAW rocket?"

"No. It's a diplomatic mission."

"IN THARKOLD!!!"


"...That's what I'm saying. You're not live a minute in Tharkold if you came there with LAW. You'll be a threat, and they don't like it."
I argue fiercely, but I never believed disagreement should be capital offence.

I'm editing my posts often. English isn't my native language, and I'm doing a lot of mistakes; that, with thoughtful rereading, I often found and want to edit.

fougerec
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Re: Questions about vehicles

Postby fougerec » Tue Aug 07, 2018 8:04 pm

Spatula wrote:
fougerec wrote:Then again I run my DC like a special forces task force fighting a war on multiple fronts. So the standard loadout for a heavy combat mission may be a rifle, a pistol, 3 magazines for each, a frag grenade, armor and a medkit" and the player may go "ummm...there's technodemons in Tharkhold. Can I maybe get a LAW rocket or two?" The DC provides the gear to perform the assigned mission (and keep the asset safe). Anything else the PCs get on their own. Note though that if they buy that armor on their own, then they would have it for a diplomatic mission as well as a combat mission.


"Can I get a LAW rocket?"

"No. It's a diplomatic mission."

"IN THARKOLD!!!"


That's where buying your own comes in :) I mean if you "legitimately" found it after it fell off the back of a truck on that mission in Cairo then who's going to say you can't bring it. Especially if the DC doesn't know about it.

Much the same as having a character who likes to just acquire stuff from enemies.

mica
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Re: Questions about vehicles

Postby mica » Wed Aug 08, 2018 6:04 am

Shipping LAW rockets through Cairo has the unfortunate issue of converting to bazookas.

FatPob
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Re: Questions about vehicles

Postby FatPob » Wed Aug 08, 2018 9:46 am

utsukushi wrote:Speed Demon etc, delphi council gear etc


Having read through your posts, I see the exact point you are making. There as perks "Speed Demon" being one, that are either very niche, have requirements unavailable to players at the start or play, or require additional clarification, and some that seem completely redundant (Adaptable and Axiom Increase IMO) and shockingly poor when compared to others that are the bomb - Nile Pulp powers, the two Armour perks.

The immediate of the text does very much imply this perk only works with Motorbikes

One would say there does seem to be some balance issues on the perks, a +1 to hit (double tap) does not equate to Dragon Warrior in anyones books (regardless of the pre-reqs).

With all that in mind, and with specific reference to the topic and your question in hand, RPGs have 2 key terms Rules As Written (RAW) and Rules As Intended (RAI). The balance between RAW and RAI is essential in gaming. If you and your players feel a particular entry (skill, talent/ gear) needs some tweaking to work thematically for your game then you don't need an official clarification from the designers.

As has been seen by many responses, very few had a problem with the character having a bike, through whatever mechanism (DC/purchased/stolen/gifted) worked for that group.

So if you think Speed Demon comes with a cool bike, it does. Now when you travel cosms, this bike may have Axiom issues, just like many items and perks (such as miracles, spells and psionics) have when crossing borders and are therefore also somewhat limited by cosm.

The point of posting a Designer Diary in relation to Gear, Money and Vehicles is get across the principles of the intention when they added the rules in the book.

fougerec
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Re: Questions about vehicles

Postby fougerec » Wed Aug 08, 2018 10:08 am

FatPob wrote:

The immediate of the text does very much imply this perk only works with Motorbikes


II don't get that as the text specifically says "or from any vehicle that allows unrestrained atacks, such as riding in an open topped vehicle.

FatPob wrote:
One would say there does seem to be some balance issues on the perks, a +1 to hit (double tap) does not equate to Dragon Warrior in anyones books (regardless of the pre-reqs).


From a strictly mechanical POV yes there are perks that are better than others. To the person who wants to play someone akin to John McLean, Double Tap is much better than Dragon Warrior.

FatPob
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Re: Questions about vehicles

Postby FatPob » Wed Aug 08, 2018 10:50 am

fougerec wrote:
FatPob wrote:

The immediate of the text does very much imply this perk only works with Motorbikes


II don't get that as the text specifically says "or from any vehicle that allows unrestrained atacks, such as riding in an open topped vehicle.


Noted, I was however actually merely referring to the first paragraph of text when it spends words on motorbikes wielding a sword.

fougerec wrote:From a strictly mechanical POV yes there are perks that are better than others. To the person who wants to play someone akin to John McLean, Double Tap is much better than Dragon Warrior.


Thematically I take your point, however in the terms of actual character balance, the cost should not be the same unless the powers offer a similar return. when John comes up against the dwarven dragon warrior, his DT may give him a +1 to hit, vs a +4 toughness and depending on choice, dart, fire or claws (despite the Dex limitations).

fougerec
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Re: Questions about vehicles

Postby fougerec » Wed Aug 08, 2018 12:11 pm

FatPob wrote:Noted, I was however actually merely referring to the first paragraph of text when it spends words on motorbikes wielding a sword.


Right but if you're discussing a power you need to use the entire description.

fougerec wrote:
Thematically I take your point, however in the terms of actual character balance, the cost should not be the same unless the powers offer a similar return. when John comes up against the dwarven dragon warrior, his DT may give him a +1 to hit, vs a +4 toughness and depending on choice, dart, fire or claws (despite the Dex limitations).


It's a question of are you making a tanky character or a DPS build. A +1 to hit can be pretty decent with the odd Torg dice mechanics and you can easily build off it. Dragon Warrior is good for taking a hit but the Dex limit of 8 means a max to hit of 13 (barring Mastery) which at a certain point isn't great. What's more is that the Dragon Armor isn't listed as Full Body (haven't checked the errata/FAQ) so a -4 called shot bypasses the +4 Toughness.

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TorgHacker
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Re: Questions about vehicles

Postby TorgHacker » Wed Aug 08, 2018 12:38 pm

Errata has it as Full Body (same with Ion Gosoku)
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utsukushi
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Re: Questions about vehicles

Postby utsukushi » Wed Aug 08, 2018 2:11 pm

Atama wrote:What makes you think that? If I’m going somewhere for business, “travel” expenses might include both plane tickets to arrive in another city but also the cost of renting a vehicle so I can get around, or at least cab fare. By any reasonable measure that constitutes “travel”. That’s what it means in the real world, why wouldn’t it mean that in the game?

Well, as I've said before, I think that because it's what the rules say. "Travel" includes getting you from point A to point B. It does not involve a vehicle that you can keep and do whatever you want with. It's certainly not intended to include, for one character, an item they can use in combat and for everyone else nothing in particular. In the real world, if you're going somewhere on business with a group, your company might indeed arrange for a shuttle or a possibly even a rental car, but they're not going to give one person in your group their own motorcycle just because they really want one, even if they're super good at it.

Would the Delphi Council really send someone to a location and expect them to walk once they got there? That would be completely ridiculous

Is it? In most of the games I've been playing, the Storm Knights are grown ups. In my experience, adults are generally expected to be able to figure out how to get around a local area without having their hand held the whole time. This is also in, as you say, the real world. I can imagine some adventures in which something like Uber rides or something have been specifically set up to get the Knights everywhere they need to be, especially in PP or the CP... but not in most Realms, and again, certainly not including individual options for just one person who wants to use it when a fight breaks out. That's not a legitimate travel expense anymore.

Aenno wrote:Who are they responsible to? To Security Council of United Nations, with Russia, China and France are permanent members? Who signs their budget - US, who are struggling in battle for United States themselves? Especially with "Uncooperative Inhabitants" thing in Core Book. I don't see how millions of dollars going to DC bank accounts. And also it's quite interesting thing who exactly Storm Knights are.

That's a really interesting line of thought... I know we've touched on it here and there, probably more in the Setting forum than Rules. I think it's deliberately fuzzy in the book - they wanted to leave that a lot up to the GM, whether your Delphi Council is a sleek, well-funded machine or a more desperately scrambling hodgepodge of various organizations trying to work together.

I'm doing it. I can post my photo!

Well, if you and your group just don't want to deal with limits on gear and like assuming the Delphi Council provides everything, that is up to you - but it is definitely not in the rules, and since you're not my GM, that doesn't help me much.

But... after all... "The character may also have a home, vehicle, and so on that can be used when in his native realm." We're not necessary broke pals and gals who carry everything they have in their backpacks.

Right? I started with that, but it was confirmed that, "when in his native realm" is key and not accidental. This doesn't allow an ES a bike they can transport around with them, even though bikes are a lot more transportable than cars.

"The Delphi Council doesn’t authorize things like private jets, controlled substances, or weapons that are illegal in a relatively lawful civilian area. Such attempts automatically fail." p. 139.
I believe noting about "weapons that are illegal in a relatively lawful area" implies that legal weapons or weapons when SK going to battlefield can be provided.
Also example on p. 139 is about armor

Yyyess...? And all of that is set solidly in the Requisitioning rules, where you roll Persuasion to ask for something special. There's no point asking for a private jet because the answer will be no. A motorcycle might be yes, but you have to roll for it, and that roll is pretty darned high. Again, this is where we started. And no, it's certainly not saying that anything but jets, drugs, and illegal weapons are free or automatic - just that you can *try*.

fougerec wrote: If that mission (note the actual mission, not the adventure) includes combat then yes they provide weapons and armor.

Again, that seems mostly reasonable (although I think there are balance issues, frankly), but it's certainly not in the rules. It also doesn't really help because it is still saying, in regards to the Speed Demon Perk, "Everyone else can use all of their abilities whenever they want, but you may use yours only with a stamped approval from the Delphi Council signed by at least two VP or higher level authorities." (<-- again, the target to requisition even the cheapest vehicles is pretty steep, and would here only not be at issue if the mission specifically calls for motorcycle-duelling, which... seems... rare? I mean, not for that to come up in a mission, especially if you have a motorcycle duellist on your team, but to be a key, pre-planned, official component of a mission.)

fougerec wrote:Right but if you're discussing a power you need to use the entire description.

And half of that entire description is all about motorcycles. On top of which, waving a sword out the child-safe back window of a Volvo... I mean... seriously? It might be mechanically justifiable, but this is clearly not why I signed up to be an Electric Samurai. (OK, you're right - that's not, because it's not an "open-topped" vehicle. At least not at the start of the battle. Third round after fighting a Technodemon from your Volvo, it may technically be, but... quick poll, how many people have spent three rounds fighting a Technodemon from inside a Volvo, anyway? I've gotten some really surprising results on these polls in this thread already, so I'm honestly expecting at least two here. I've given up on trying to come up with scenarios too outlandish for Torg Eternity... :lol: )

Besides, all those other vehicles you all keep saying are totally available all the time are actually even more expensive than the motorcycles, so I'm not sure how that's meant to answer the question. The answer seems to be that you can just break in and steal one, but 1) Samurai are supposed to follow a code of honor, 2) Storm Knights are (by default) supposed to be generally Good, and 3) That, too, is solidly not in the rules anywhere, so if you as GMs want to handwave picking up any gear people want off the ground that's up to you but it's neither RAW nor RAI.

FatPob wrote:As has been seen by many responses, very few had a problem with the character having a bike, through whatever mechanism (DC/purchased/stolen/gifted) worked for that group.

Thank you, by the way! It is nice to feel like I'm not completely incoherent.

This specifically is why I kind of thought a FAQ note might be warranted at some point. Everybody seems to agree that actually, yes, if you have the Perk you should be able to use it and that means that, sort of generally speaking, an appropriate vehicle should usually be available to you. An element that just isn't backed up by RAW, which...sounds like an errata to me. So maybe not, "The Speed Demon Perk includes an Ishido Special, which you get back if anything happens to it," but perhaps just, "Characters with the Speed Demon Perk generally know how to get their hands on a suitable vehicle - usually a Tech-appropriate motorcycle. Sometimes this may mean taking something into an unsupportive Zone (such as a Core Earth Harley into the Living Land), where it will run the usual risks of Contradictory equipment, but a character with this Perk can usually expect to start any Act with access to something, whether through the Delphi Council or their own resourcefulness." Or something similar. Maybe somebody better than me can get it down to something less wordy - that's definitely not my forte.

And again, yeah, I know that this is an errata for just one substandard Perk, but so are the two we have for Block Strike, for instance. The Perk section is actually unsurprisingly chock full of examples of errata dedicated to specific Perks.


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