Improvements to Charisma

mystic101
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Re: Improvements to Charisma

Postby mystic101 » Fri Feb 23, 2018 11:23 am

I like the idea, too. Spirit is way too useful for so many different, very important things. Charisma could use the boost. Charisma is partly being able to project toward others how you want to be treated. Sending out to them what you want to have happen. I could see that tying into manipulating reality really easily.

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pkitty
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Re: Improvements to Charisma

Postby pkitty » Fri Feb 23, 2018 1:44 pm

For what it's worth, this (Reality uses Charisma) is one of the very few house rules that I plan to use when I run Torg. It makes a lot of sense, given how Charisma is used for perks, Corruption, Storytelling, etc. -- not only is it a sensible mechanical change to avoid a dump stat, it's actually a better thematic change as well, IMO.
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Wotan
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Re: Improvements to Charisma

Postby Wotan » Sun Feb 25, 2018 4:05 pm

The discussion's been had, & those who felt that Charisma did need a buff seem happy with linking Reality to it, but another argument for Charisma not being a systemic dump stat became apparent during my group's last session.

My party discovered, the hard way, that the "Gloater" villain perk is a serious inconvenience for characters with low Charisma. :twisted:
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TorgHacker
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Re: Improvements to Charisma

Postby TorgHacker » Sun Feb 25, 2018 4:46 pm

Mmmhmmmmm... :twisted:
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ZorValachan
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Re: Improvements to Charisma

Postby ZorValachan » Sun Feb 25, 2018 5:09 pm

Wotan wrote:The discussion's been had, & those who felt that Charisma did need a buff seem happy with linking Reality to it, but another argument for Charisma not being a systemic dump stat became apparent during my group's last session.

My party discovered, the hard way, that the "Gloater" villain perk is a serious inconvenience for characters with low Charisma. :twisted:


Specific villain type, yes. I had a player martyr his character because a gloater multi-targeted the entire party and was getting ready to do some major damage. So, I'm aware of that.

But in general its nice to have Charisma be important in some way in all situations for all characters, the simple reality fix solves that.

It also puts the Charismatic Core Earth storyteller type giving hope to others above the Aysle priest as a master of reality when ripping up stelae :), that fits my thinking stylistically as well. As does the above discussion about orrorsh corruption unraveling one's hold on reality.
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Wotan
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Re: Improvements to Charisma

Postby Wotan » Sun Feb 25, 2018 6:27 pm

ZorValachan wrote:Specific villain type, yes.

I imagine it being quite a common boss Perk, it basically fits any overconfident, exposition-prone, villain. It's interaction with Destiny cards really ups the stakes in any encounter with a Gloater.

I had a player martyr his character because a gloater multi-targeted the entire party and was getting ready to do some major damage. So, I'm aware of that.

Lol, awesome to see it causing that kind of reaction in players! :D

But in general its nice to have Charisma be important in some way in all situations for all characters, the simple reality fix solves that.

Doesn't it just make Mind the obvious dump stat though? By RAW, IMO, they're about equal in terms of individual characters being able to dump one (or both) while still being durable in fights. *shrug*

It also puts the Charismatic Core Earth storyteller type giving hope to others above the Aysle priest as a master of reality when ripping up stelae :), that fits my thinking stylistically as well. As does the above discussion about orrorsh corruption unraveling one's hold on reality.

Fair play if that works for you, in terms of mechanics modelling setting, but I prefer the notion of P-rated characters maintaining their reality, in the face of the Everlaws, through bloody mindedness & sheer force of will, & IMO that seems to be more of a facet of Spirit rather than Charisma. *shrug* :)
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pkitty
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Re: Improvements to Charisma

Postby pkitty » Sun Feb 25, 2018 6:47 pm

Wotan wrote:My party discovered, the hard way, that the "Gloater" villain perk is a serious inconvenience for characters with low Charisma.

Except, that's not quite accurate.

Yes, Taunt is wicked and evil and something everyone needs to worry about. But that doesn't make Charisma not a dump stat. Because you do not need a Charisma score worth a darn in Torg . . . you just need to buy up your Taunt skill. Having a single skill that matters to everyone is not enough to make Charisma valuable, because it's cheaper to just raise Taunt on its own.

Take these two characters, whose other stats are identical:

ADA
Charisma 8
Spirit 8
Reality +3 (11)
Faith +3 (11)
Taunt +1 (9)

BOB
Charisma 5
Spirit 11
Reality +1 (12)
Faith +1 (12)
Taunt +5 (10)

(The sample skills in this example (two Spirit, one Charisma) reflect the fact that there are over twice as many Spirit skills as Charisma skills. It's a fair, representative example.)

So . . . Bob ends up less vulnerable than Ada because he only has to worry about raising a single skill, and all of his Spirit skills are so much better by default. The only advantage that Ada has is that her other Charisma skills are higher. And don't get me wrong, that's an important thing -- every party needs a face. But it demonstrates that "vulnerability to Taunt" is 100% a red herring when it comes to discussing this topic.
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Wotan
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Re: Improvements to Charisma

Postby Wotan » Sun Feb 25, 2018 7:26 pm

pkitty wrote:But it demonstrates that "vulnerability to Taunt" is 100% a red herring when it comes to discussing this topic.

I think you're overstating your case, but you're allowed your opinion. *shrug*

I think your example's a little hyperbolic too. It's a theoretically possible scenario but, honestly, it seems unlikely for a character to burn at least 9xp into a skill just to bump a defense, at least until they've got a chunk of XP, & have rounded out the things they want to be good at.

Ultimately the value of Charisma is going to come down to the kinds of adventures a given table plays, same as Mind IMO. Mostly the party will be able to get away with one character who's good at it, but not always.
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Gargoyle
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Re: Improvements to Charisma

Postby Gargoyle » Sun Feb 25, 2018 8:54 pm

Don't forget Persuasion. It can prevent entire combats and sway neutral parties into becoming allies. I've said it before so I won't harp on it, but I don't think Torg Eternity really has a "dump stat" like a dump stat is in D&D for instance...there isn't an attribute you dump with absolutely no risk or cost. Dump one at your own peril.

But I do think using Charisma with Reality to Reconnect and tap Eternity Shards will be quite appropriate for my game, I am sold on using it for that.
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mystic101
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Re: Improvements to Charisma

Postby mystic101 » Mon Feb 26, 2018 10:27 pm

Gargoyle wrote:Don't forget Persuasion. It can prevent entire combats and sway neutral parties into becoming allies.


I played in four Day One adventures before getting the opportunity to make an original character, and I went back and analyzed the different things that I'd spent my starting three Possibilities on, each game, to inform the character building process. It turned out that I'd spent fully 50% of those possibilities on Persuasion checks! I'd spent 1 out of 3 possibilities for it in Tharkold and the Nile, and TWO out of every three possibilities for it in the Cyberpapacy and Orrorsh.

When I saw that, I gave my character three starting adds in Persuasion, AND bought Super-skill: Persuasion with my first five experience points. So far, I've found that I still have to spend a Possibility when I'm trying something really hard, but average tasks aren't anywhere near the drain they used to be. I'm sure many people don't use Persuasion as much, but it fit my personal playstyle.

That said, I still think Charisma is highly dump-able as it is now, despite my personal fondness for using Persuasion. Superskill let me cut corners and take Cha down to a 7. If I hadn't kept it that high for roleplay reasons . . . I wanted my character to be on the high-average of likability, in-game . . . then I think it would have been well worthwhile to trim it even more, using the superskill as a crutch, or just making do with high base adds.

If someone like me who wants Cha to be useful, and who wants to use it all the time, still has the opinion that it's cuttable, then Cha is being underserved as things are now. Having Reality work off of Cha would mitigate that a little, as well as being justifiable in-game for reasons already discussed. My opinion, anyway. I love the game and am very happy playing, either way.


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