Understanding chases

User avatar
DerHuthmacher
Posts: 55
Joined: Wed Aug 09, 2017 6:03 am
Location: Ruhr area; Germany

Understanding chases

Postby DerHuthmacher » Mon Feb 12, 2018 4:34 am

Hello everyone.

Maybe I missed a concrete example.
I just want to make sure I understand chases correctly, and maybe help someone else with understanding.

So, for the sake of my quest, let's assume Peter, Paul and Mary are investigating some facility. The place seems deserted and, oh my, it is huge. Soon, they are lost in the long corridors and hallways, but the secret plans must be - somewhere.

After what seems like an eternity they get into a room and see the corpse of a man dressed in scientist garbs, his flesh dissolving underneath a layer of slimey goo. Appalled they watch as the slime begins to move with massive speed in their direction. There is no mistake: the creature is alive and it is hungry for them.

So, our three protagonists are on the run and the creature is on their heels.
They all start on step A, meaning the heroes are just a few steps ahead of the slime and able to hear it slurping, feeling it's corrosive acidic breath - in lack of a better term - just on their neck.

I decide on following premises:
- a possible setback occurs when something hinders their escape, for instance a fallen locker they have to jump over or move out of the way.
- a complication might be that someone runs out of air or sprains an ankle, if the roll is unsuccesful,
- a critical problem means they have arrived at a locked door which they just have to force, because there is no backtracking.

Okay, here we are.
Peter, Paul, Mary, Slime - Step A.

I draw a card reading "A C", so they might attempt step A to advance to step B.
All of our heroes make the roll, and so does the slime.

Next round.Another "A C", so there's no possibility to advance to step C. The creature is still on their heels.

Next round. "A B D". They can try to advance. Peter and Mary make it, so does the slime, but Paul fails the roll.This would have the slime ahead of Paul, so I just make it that Paul is engulfed by it and suffers damage. Covered in the goo and hurting all over, he manages to run on.

A complication occurs. All our heores make the roll, jumping over the locker that suddenly blocks their sprints after turning a corner. But slimey doesn't. It bumps into the locker, losing one step. Now, as a reminder, Peter and Mary are still on step C, Paul and slimey are on step B. The creature is just a few seconds behind Paul, and a few meters behind Peter and Mary.

Next round, we get a possible setback. All make it save Mary, who twists her ankle. All of her rolls are -1 from now on as she limps in terror and pain.

Now the next card reads "A D". Peter makes the roll. Mary - due to her impairment - doesn't. Peter escapes. The rest doesn't. Mary is still on C, Paul on slimey are still on B. I decide that Peter manages to climb a rusty ladder that breaks apart as soon as he is finished. Mary and Paul just have to run on.

Next card is "A B", nothing changes, next is "A C". Paul and slimey might try to advance to that step. Again, the slime creature succeeds while Paul doesn't and again, he suffers damage for it. This time, he succumbs to it.

Next card reads "Critical problem". Mary has arrived at a locked door, making the passage something like a dead end if she cannot open that damned door. She makes it.

Next card is "A B C D". She makes the test, advancing to step D. and escaping the deathtrap.


-----


Now, did I do anything wrong?
---
Hell is where the heart is.

User avatar
PrinceEarwig
Posts: 222
Joined: Fri Dec 23, 2016 7:01 am

Re: Understanding chases

Postby PrinceEarwig » Mon Feb 12, 2018 7:15 am

You may have denied Mary one of her attempts at completing Step C (immediately before the critical problem) but other than that it looks good.
Remember that with any Dramatic Skill resolution there is also the possibility of a time limit.
Your example doesn't have one, which is fine.

User avatar
TorgHacker
Posts: 4901
Joined: Tue Sep 06, 2016 6:40 pm

Re: Understanding chases

Postby TorgHacker » Mon Feb 12, 2018 8:34 am

DerHuthmacher wrote:

Now, did I do anything wrong?


Did you have fun? If yes, then no. :-)

Seriously though...

A complication occurs. All our heores make the roll, jumping over the locker that suddenly blocks their sprints after turning a corner. But slimey doesn't. It bumps into the locker, losing one step. Now, as a reminder, Peter and Mary are still on step C, Paul and slimey are on step B. The creature is just a few seconds behind Paul, and a few meters behind Peter and Mary.


The bolded section here is incorrect. When a dilemma occurs, characters can attempt the current step, and if successful they advance to the next step. It's only if they fail or don't attempt that they fall back. So Peter and Mary, because they succeeded are now on Step D.

Next round, we get a possible setback. All make it save Mary, who twists her ankle. All of her rolls are -1 from now on as she limps in terror and pain.


Same as above, so at this point, Peter actually completes step D and escapes.

Next card reads "Critical problem". Mary has arrived at a locked door, making the passage something like a dead end if she cannot open that damned door. She makes it.

Next card is "A B C D". She makes the test, advancing to step D. and escaping the deathtrap.


The error here is that Mary has only advanced to step D, she has not completed it. So she hasn't escaped.
Deanna Gilbert
Torg Eternity designer
Ulisses North America

User avatar
TorgHacker
Posts: 4901
Joined: Tue Sep 06, 2016 6:40 pm

Re: Understanding chases

Postby TorgHacker » Mon Feb 12, 2018 8:35 am

PrinceEarwig wrote:You may have denied Mary one of her attempts at completing Step C (immediately before the critical problem) but other than that it looks good.
Remember that with any Dramatic Skill resolution there is also the possibility of a time limit.
Your example doesn't have one, which is fine.


Chases often don't, since the 'time limit' is 'whenever the bad guy completes D'.
Deanna Gilbert
Torg Eternity designer
Ulisses North America

Big Lurker
Posts: 57
Joined: Mon Sep 04, 2017 7:55 pm

Re: Understanding chases

Postby Big Lurker » Mon Feb 12, 2018 9:37 pm

Also, remember that on round two(for example), they could attempt the check anyway; while they wouldn't go to the next step, it would count as an approved action, and net them more cards. Alternatively, they could attack or try to stymie their opponent and worsen their chances (of course, that goes both ways). There's also attempting more than one step in a round (if available on the card) with Multi-actions...

User avatar
Wotan
Posts: 506
Joined: Wed Aug 23, 2017 8:10 pm
Location: Aysle (UK)

Re: Understanding chases

Postby Wotan » Wed Apr 11, 2018 10:13 pm

I've just been refreshing my memory on the Chase rules (P 134). I think I get the RAI, and it all makes sense, except...

Given the abstract, relative positioning principle that the rules are working on, the attack/stunt penalties for being on different steps, listed under "Distance" feel a little odd.
A -2 for each step between participants would make total sense if each step represented a set distance, but Chases' abstract mechanics look like they're going to throw up some odd penalties if the chaser is doing much better than the "chasee". The chaser completing step D means they've caught their target, but if the target's much slower, or rolling badly, it seems like it actually gets harder for the chaser to land attacks or stunts on their target as they close in on them.
E.g. If (for whatever reason) the target gets stuck at step A, the chaser is suffering incrementally large penalties to hit as they advance towards Step D, up until the point that they actually catch the target. At which point all the "range" penalties fall off.

Is it just me, or does this feel counter-intuitive, and difficult to justify, to anyone else? It's the sort of thing which my players are likely to find immersion breaking. Even with TorgE's cinematic setting, (which helps me "sell" a lot of stuff that might bother them in a more simulationist system) I'm at a loss as to how I sell this mechanic to them in a way they'll find satisfying.

So, am I misunderstanding something?
If not, does anyone have any suggestions, either in terms, of explaining the abstraction, or, on tweaking the RAW?

EDIT: My first thought, for a quick and easy "fix", is to only apply the "range" penalties, for differing steps, if the targets are ahead of the pursuer; If the pursuer is on a higher step than the target they're gaining on them/breathing down their necks, & attacks are at no penalty. Does that work?
Glitchfinder General

User avatar
bchoinski
Posts: 130
Joined: Wed Jul 12, 2017 12:44 pm

Re: Understanding chases

Postby bchoinski » Wed Apr 11, 2018 10:45 pm

I have a question on this as well. I'm busy plotting out the Episode after the current one, in case my players complete it this weekend. At some point I have a likely Jeep chase as they escape a Nile base. The Jeeps are all "rat-patrol" types with a .50 cal MG, so presumably there will be gunfire back and forth.

If the player vehicle takes a Hit, can the driver "Soak" that damage much like he does personally? I.e. like a soak shuffles reality such that he finds a variation where "he was just grazed", can the driver do the same ("the bullets glance off the door, shooting out the mirror") for his vehicle in a chase?

I Say driver only, not just any storm knight in the car.

fougerec
Posts: 878
Joined: Wed Jul 12, 2017 9:27 am

Re: Understanding chases

Postby fougerec » Thu Apr 12, 2018 6:46 am

I don't think of the steps as strict distance. The rules say "This isn’t strictly distance, but reflects relative positioning during the round, advantageous
positions, and obstacles."

If the opponents are behind on steps I take it to mean that the winners may be moving through a shortcut or other obstacle laden path that gets them in position to catch the opponent faster (i.e. they are closer to D) but at the cost of not having a clear line of effect (the increasing penalties even though they are "winning")

User avatar
Gargoyle
Posts: 1797
Joined: Mon Nov 14, 2016 8:20 pm

Re: Understanding chases

Postby Gargoyle » Thu Apr 12, 2018 7:30 am

Wotan wrote:I've just been refreshing my memory on the Chase rules (P 134). I think I get the RAI, and it all makes sense, except...

Given the abstract, relative positioning principle that the rules are working on, the attack/stunt penalties for being on different steps, listed under "Distance" feel a little odd.
A -2 for each step between participants would make total sense if each step represented a set distance, but Chases' abstract mechanics look like they're going to throw up some odd penalties if the chaser is doing much better than the "chasee". The chaser completing step D means they've caught their target, but if the target's much slower, or rolling badly, it seems like it actually gets harder for the chaser to land attacks or stunts on their target as they close in on them.
E.g. If (for whatever reason) the target gets stuck at step A, the chaser is suffering incrementally large penalties to hit as they advance towards Step D, up until the point that they actually catch the target. At which point all the "range" penalties fall off.

Is it just me, or does this feel counter-intuitive, and difficult to justify, to anyone else? It's the sort of thing which my players are likely to find immersion breaking. Even with TorgE's cinematic setting, (which helps me "sell" a lot of stuff that might bother them in a more simulationist system) I'm at a loss as to how I sell this mechanic to them in a way they'll find satisfying.

So, am I misunderstanding something?
If not, does anyone have any suggestions, either in terms, of explaining the abstraction, or, on tweaking the RAW?

EDIT: My first thought, for a quick and easy "fix", is to only apply the "range" penalties, for differing steps, if the targets are ahead of the pursuer; If the pursuer is on a higher step than the target they're gaining on them/breathing down their necks, & attacks are at no penalty. Does that work?


I had exactly this question in an earlier thread.
viewtopic.php?f=28&t=1207
"That old chestnut?"

Gargoyle

User avatar
TorgHacker
Posts: 4901
Joined: Tue Sep 06, 2016 6:40 pm

Re: Understanding chases

Postby TorgHacker » Thu Apr 12, 2018 9:14 am

Wotan wrote:I've just been refreshing my memory on the Chase rules (P 134). I think I get the RAI, and it all makes sense, except...

Given the abstract, relative positioning principle that the rules are working on, the attack/stunt penalties for being on different steps, listed under "Distance" feel a little odd.
A -2 for each step between participants would make total sense if each step represented a set distance, but Chases' abstract mechanics look like they're going to throw up some odd penalties if the chaser is doing much better than the "chasee". The chaser completing step D means they've caught their target, but if the target's much slower, or rolling badly, it seems like it actually gets harder for the chaser to land attacks or stunts on their target as they close in on them.
E.g. If (for whatever reason) the target gets stuck at step A, the chaser is suffering incrementally large penalties to hit as they advance towards Step D, up until the point that they actually catch the target. At which point all the "range" penalties fall off.

Is it just me, or does this feel counter-intuitive, and difficult to justify, to anyone else? It's the sort of thing which my players are likely to find immersion breaking. Even with TorgE's cinematic setting, (which helps me "sell" a lot of stuff that might bother them in a more simulationist system) I'm at a loss as to how I sell this mechanic to them in a way they'll find satisfying.


As Gargoyle mentioned above, we did discuss this sort of thing in that thread.

There are two keys to remember:

In a chase, getting higher steps just means that you're closer to finishing the dramatic question: "Does the prey escape or not?" It doesn't _necessarily_ mean (though it could) that you're increasing the distance from your pursuers.


The difference between steps gives you a penalty to shoot, it is more abstract than normal. It's a combo of range, concealment, increased difficulty to shoot because it's an unstable platform (ie. sudden movements to avoid obstacles).

The difference between A and D can mean that the participants are far away but the shot is clean...or it can mean they're close and there's tons of obstacles getting in the way of a clear shot. I kinda wish we hadn't put the header on page 134 as "Distance" but we do mention that it isn't strictly distance in the subsequent paragraph.

It would've been better in hindsight to call it 'Obstacles' rather than distance.
Deanna Gilbert
Torg Eternity designer
Ulisses North America


Return to “Rules Questions (TORG)”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 11 guests