Concealment and Cover

Sword of Spirit
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Re: Concealment and Cover

Postby Sword of Spirit » Fri Mar 30, 2018 7:40 pm

One thing that occurred to me as a possible alternative, is to keep the max penalty of -6, but treat Concealment/Cover exactly like armor. It literally is just temporary armor you get for hiding behind something.

Shooting at someone with Concealment is just making a called shot. Same -2/-4/-6 based on how much there is to aim at. If you succeed, you bypass their Cover "armor." If you fail, you miss entirely, just like with regular armor.

If you have any sort of visibility penalty (such as Darkness), you can't take a called shot. You have the darkness penalty, and if you miss you miss, but if you happen to hit, you hit their armor (which might let you penetrate it).

This does mean that any visibility penalty (even equivalent to torso armor) would cause you to miss entirely...but since the rules already do have you missing entirely on a failed called shot, it would be entirely consistent with the called shot rules.

It avoids both the double stacking up to -12, and the weirdness of figuring out how to manage overlapping penalties.

Rule Part 1: Concealment is armor. You can make a called shot to bypass it like normal.
Rule Part 2: If you have any visibility issues (Darkness/Blind-Fire, or equivalent) you can't make a called shot.

mystic101
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Re: Concealment and Cover

Postby mystic101 » Sat Mar 31, 2018 9:57 pm

utsukushi wrote:Mind you, since Concealment puts you at the same penalties anyway, you might as well do a Called Shot, which expressly ignores Concealment plus gives you a bonus to your damage or lets you disarm your opponent, depending on what's sticking out, and most assuredly ignores Cover.

Looking at it like that, Concealment and Cover seem like some of those pieces that could have been taken out to make room for the couch I wanted over there... :P

So, if it's Dark (-4) and you're behind cover firing a long rifle such that your limb is showing (-2 Concealment), you have a -6 to hit.

But that does mean that if you're shooting through a wall, and someone turns off the lights, you go from a -6 to a -10 as if it just became harder to find the wall. And given the exponential impact of stacking in Torg, I don't know.

But these do seem to be very fringe scenarios.


Someone flips over an Eyes of the Saar card.
"Aaahhh!!! Baruk Kaah is here!"
"Wait! Don't panic, everybody! Remember, it's pitch-dark, and with these narrow rock crevices to hide in, he's looking at a -12 to hit. Quick, somebody start taunting him for flailing around so much, and let's make it a -16!" :lol:

Now I'm just waiting for some enterprising Explorer-level backer to come up with a Barrier spell. Then a Magister mage can crank out Barriers + Mage Darks for their party at the start of every fight. :)

utsukushi
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Re: Concealment and Cover

Postby utsukushi » Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:57 pm

That scene sounds awesome!

At least until someone checks Baruuk Kaah's stats and realizes that with a -16, he'll have to roll four or higher to get that Outstanding Success he was hoping for...

Sword of Spirit wrote:It avoids both the double stacking up to -12, and the weirdness of figuring out how to manage overlapping penalties.

It sets up some even weirder resonances than we have now, though. It means that the Cover rules only ever apply if someone is hiding behind a table in the dark. It means that someone can't aim if you dim the lights. It also means that if someone is hiding behind a car door during the day, then an attacker would be at -4, and if they miss, they miss, if they hit, they hit. If someone is standing behind a car door at night, the attacker is at the same -4, but if they miss, they miss, and if they hit, they hit the door.

I can see where you're going, but to me, I'm afraid that makes it worse.

Sword of Spirit
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Re: Concealment and Cover

Postby Sword of Spirit » Sun Apr 01, 2018 12:42 am

utsukushi wrote:That scene sounds awesome!

At least until someone checks Baruuk Kaah's stats and realizes that with a -16, he'll have to roll four or higher to get that Outstanding Success he was hoping for...

Sword of Spirit wrote:It avoids both the double stacking up to -12, and the weirdness of figuring out how to manage overlapping penalties.

It sets up some even weirder resonances than we have now, though. It means that the Cover rules only ever apply if someone is hiding behind a table in the dark. It means that someone can't aim if you dim the lights. It also means that if someone is hiding behind a car door during the day, then an attacker would be at -4, and if they miss, they miss, if they hit, they hit. If someone is standing behind a car door at night, the attacker is at the same -4, but if they miss, they miss, and if they hit, they hit the door.

I can see where you're going, but to me, I'm afraid that makes it worse.


Yeah, I realized it was messier after I posted it. The motivation was to keep the penalties down, but since there is already stacking of some penalties, it's easier just to go with the stacking penalties.

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Atama
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Re: Concealment and Cover

Postby Atama » Sun Apr 01, 2018 4:35 pm

TorgHacker wrote: If you miss because of the Concealment penalty, you hit, but the Cover Armor bonus applies (and note it is an Armor bonus, so that doesn't stack with Armor).

But the book says “this stacks with worn Armor”...?

Page 121 of the Core Rules under “Cover”.
“You are a bad person, and should feel bad.”
-TorgHacker (being tongue-in-cheek :D)

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TorgHacker
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Re: Concealment and Cover

Postby TorgHacker » Sun Apr 01, 2018 5:11 pm

You know what? You're right.

I see on page 144:

"Wearing multiple
layers of armor uses only the best value rather
than adding the values together—they’re just not
designed to hold together that way."

Cover is not wearing multiple types of Armor.
Deanna Gilbert
Torg Eternity designer
Ulisses North America

ZorValachan
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Re: Concealment and Cover

Postby ZorValachan » Sun Apr 01, 2018 5:56 pm

Atama wrote:
TorgHacker wrote: If you miss because of the Concealment penalty, you hit, but the Cover Armor bonus applies (and note it is an Armor bonus, so that doesn't stack with Armor).

But the book says “this stacks with worn Armor”...?

Page 121 of the Core Rules under “Cover”.


I really think this is getting WAAAAAAAAAAAYYYYYYYYY too complicated.
I must have really interpreted the rules way off-base, but I think what I originally thought as RAW are now a houserule that I will use (and probaly either update in the Paraverse or add it to my Paraverse: Living Land update, or even do a quick "option rules" product, but I don't want to devalue my Paraverse product, which I've gotten good response about.

Anyway, my "Houserule" that I originally thought was RAW.
Darkness, Lighting, Concealment, etc. are all different names for the same thing -2/-4/-6 (-6 is also invisibility). That thing is does the opponent know where you are or blindly guessing where you are? if you are invisible, but standing in dust and leaving prints, maybe it's only -4, etc. the GM determines how hidden the target is. and gives a -2/-4/-6. If the attacker is not sure where the target is, then a miss is a miss (behind one of those trees, behind that long brick wall, completely shrouded in darkness, or invisible somewhere in this room). he is hoping that he gets a lucky shot/swing This will work also if the attacker is blinded/partly blinded (fog, sand in eyes, etc.). The GM determines how bad and gives a penalty.

Cover comes into play when the attacker KNOWS where the target is specifically. You are behind that tree right there in the forest, behind that small brick wall and I see your foot poking out, in darkness but spotted by a successful perception test, or invisible, but are standing in water and displacing it, etc. That's when if the miss is within the -2/-4/-6 range you get the armor bonus (+2/+4/+6) that stacks with your normal armor IF any object you are taking cover behind can be penetrated. if you are behind nothing (invisible/darkness, or by something laughable: paper/cardboard, a bed-sheet you get +0). And yes, that means the guy seen in the dark or the invisible guy that is displacing water (leaving footprints, etc) is going to get hit "normally" but I am basing success levels off the MODIFIED total, not the original, so it will still be a bit more difficult to get a good/outstanding success.

I just think this is easier, faster, and makes more sense than figuring out all those fringe conditions.

Not known where = miss in the penalty range
Known = hit in the penalty range and possible armor bonus and Good/Outstanding success determined by the modified skill total (higher than penalty range)
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The Paraverse: An entire alternate Cosmverse
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mystic101
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Re: Concealment and Cover

Postby mystic101 » Sun Apr 01, 2018 10:06 pm

utsukushi wrote:That scene sounds awesome!

At least until someone checks Baruuk Kaah's stats and realizes that with a -16, he'll have to roll four or higher to get that Outstanding Success he was hoping for...


I don't know, a -16 to his Melee skill of 28 only gives him an effective skill of 12, which is pretty manageable.
"We got this! High Lord, Shmy-Lord. Nyah, nyah!"

. . . Then the storyteller looks more closely at Kaah's stats, and finally notices that he has Starry Eyes. Kaah grins at the foolish apes, who've herded themselves into stony recesses where they won't be able to escape. They see his gleaming, glittering eyes draw closer, and he also sees them . . .

(all the players) "AAAHHHHH!!!"

RamblingScribe
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Re: Concealment and Cover

Postby RamblingScribe » Tue Apr 03, 2018 12:14 pm

I think that I will treat it that cover and concealment stack. Like this.

A character is partially hidden by a table and the bad guys can see part of him, but it's not clear how his body is positioned, so they get -2 to hit (concealment), even if the table is made of cardboard.

But it's made of wood, so they get a further -2 to hit, except that if they miss by 2 or less, they hit him through the table and he gets armour (cover).

A plexiglass table would give the cover but not the concealment.

Darkness etc stack with cover, but not concealment.

You can do a called shot to an unconcealed area of the body, but not a concealed part.

This will work better for my sense of realism with the fewest changes.

mica
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Re: Concealment and Cover

Postby mica » Tue Apr 03, 2018 1:52 pm

I think that a trick has been missed here. The mechanic for cover already exists in the game in the form of firing into combat, i.e. somebody unintentionally getting in the way of the target.
Treat concealment as is (a head bobbing up and down behind a table -6 is as difficult to shoot as going for an eyeslit when you can gauge the target's movement).
If half cover, if the final die roll is evens, count the cover armour bonus, ignore on odds.
If you want to go that extra mile:
If better cover, if the final die is divisible by 2 or 3 (returning an integer), count the cover bonus to armour.

This works with partial lighting - so a head bobbing up and down behind a table in pitch black is -12 with +2 armour bonus counting when the die total is divisible by 2 or 3.


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