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Perk Interactions

Posted: Wed Apr 25, 2018 9:01 pm
by mrroderick
So, I don't want to give too much away for the Sata Eater perk (if you didn't kickstart, then you don't know what this does), but I do have a question...

Part of the text for this perk says, "For one minute (six rounds) the edeinos ignores Shock from any source." So, does this mean you cannot take the shock at all? If you also had the Relentless perk, are you unable to use that perk at the same time as gaining the benefit of this one?

Re: Perk Interactions

Posted: Wed Apr 25, 2018 10:48 pm
by Spatula
My read is yes, the Sata eater would not take shock from Relentless. It's a berserker drug that makes you into a super-edeinos for a few rounds and then takes you out of the scene. It's powerful, but that's why it has a frequency restriction on it.

Re: Perk Interactions

Posted: Thu Apr 26, 2018 10:22 am
by Kuildeous
There are a couple of questions in there. Could you elaborate on what you're saying yes to, Spatula?

But it sounds like you believe that an edeinos could use Relentless without consequence while under the effects of the drug. It is how I interpret the interaction. It makes the edeinos extra scary, so be prepared to throw another ravagon here or there.

In my experience, most combats don't last more than a minute, but if the combat is taking place near an erupting volcano or on a raft heading toward a waterfall, falling unconscious after the fight can be lethal.

Re: Perk Interactions

Posted: Thu Apr 26, 2018 11:31 am
by mrroderick
Kuildeous wrote:But it sounds like you believe that an edeinos could use Relentless without consequence while under the effects of the drug. It is how I interpret the interaction.


The reason for my question is I see this opposite the way you do. If you ignore shock and don't take the 3 shock, I don't think Relentless operates. My player who is building this PC plans to use Sata AFTER being relentless a few times.

Re: Perk Interactions

Posted: Thu Apr 26, 2018 11:49 am
by Kuildeous
mrroderick wrote:
Kuildeous wrote:But it sounds like you believe that an edeinos could use Relentless without consequence while under the effects of the drug. It is how I interpret the interaction.


The reason for my question is I see this opposite the way you do. If you ignore shock and don't take the 3 shock, I don't think Relentless operates. My player who is building this PC plans to use Sata AFTER being relentless a few times.


Based on the flavor (ha, my mind went to flower instead of flavor), I see the Relentless perk as taking shock as a consequence of exerting yourself in this frenzied attack. The shock is not the cost for doing the maneuver. Having the perk is all the cost you need to pay. But you must have that shock in order to make that exertion.

So I read the drug as removing that consequence. You go nuts and take the 3 shock, but you ignore that consequence and take 0.

I don't see that the drug would make you incapable of being more ferocious. You just pay the price later.

Re: Perk Interactions

Posted: Thu Apr 26, 2018 2:03 pm
by Wotan
mrroderick wrote:
Kuildeous wrote:But it sounds like you believe that an edeinos could use Relentless without consequence while under the effects of the drug. It is how I interpret the interaction.


The reason for my question is I see this opposite the way you do. If you ignore shock and don't take the 3 shock, I don't think Relentless operates. My player who is building this PC plans to use Sata AFTER being relentless a few times.

FWIW, I read Sata Eater the same way that Kuilderous & Spatula do.
Sata Eater has quite strict limits & downsides so I'd expect it to be a powerful ability for the 1 minute in each Act when it's active. Saying that a Sata Eater can't activate other abilities which require Shock Expenditure nerfs it pretty hard IMO. Would you allow a character to cast Miracles while Sata Eater's active? (given that a failure causes 2 shock.)

The way you're interpreting it kind of feels like you're saying that activating Sata Eater makes the user less able to exert themselves, which feels at odds with the Perk's description of turning its user into a "terrifying berserker".

To my mind it seems more in the spirit of the game, and the power, to allow Sata Eaters to activate abilities which require Shock expenditure but to then ignore the Shock. They're not putting in any less effort to their Relentless attacks, it's just that they're not feeling the exertion until the Sata effect ends. *shrug*

Re: Perk Interactions

Posted: Thu Apr 26, 2018 3:40 pm
by TorgHacker
Okay, asked Darrell about this, and specifically the idea that "If you cannot pay the cost, you do not get the benefit."

So if you've activated Sata Eater, you cannot spend the Shock, so cannot get the bonus die.

Same with the Farwalker / Bone Marked issue. I'm poking Darrell to tweak the prereq for Bone Marked to make that last one explicit.

Re: Perk Interactions

Posted: Thu Apr 26, 2018 4:31 pm
by Atama
The Relentless perk does say, “The warrior must have the available Shock to spend or the ability doesn’t function.” So that reinforces the idea that if you don’t suffer the Shock you can’t benefit.

Re: Perk Interactions

Posted: Thu Apr 26, 2018 4:52 pm
by Kuildeous
Aw man, and I'm generally in agreement with official rules.

Well, I doubt I'm going to have any sata eaters in my group. If it happens, then I'll consider this hard.

Re: Perk Interactions

Posted: Thu Apr 26, 2018 4:59 pm
by Wotan
TorgHacker wrote:Okay, asked Darrell about this, and specifically the idea that "If you cannot pay the cost, you do not get the benefit."

So if you've activated Sata Eater, you cannot spend the Shock, so cannot get the bonus die.

Same with the Farwalker / Bone Marked issue. I'm poking Darrell to tweak the prereq for Bone Marked to make that last one explicit.

I stand corrected. Thanks, as always, for the clarification. :)

But, given the limited use & after-effects, IMHO this clarification does make Sata Eater feel like quite a weak perk. Sure, I can see circumstances where it might be useful, but not to the extent that I'd pick it over other Perk options. Even if i was building an Edeinos "Berserker".

Am I being incredibly dense & missing obvious uses?