Shields & Dual wielding

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Atama
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Re: Shields & Dual wielding

Postby Atama » Thu May 17, 2018 8:31 pm

Savioronedge wrote:
Stewbacca wrote:If you really want to get complicated with a shield, read the rules for The Dark Eye by Ulisses. TorgE is the hyper simplification of systems by comparison to TDE.


I have way too little time and way too many games in my head already for that time. That said, the above quote is the first thing I have seen to make we really WANT to get into TDE.

Hmm, same for me... I liked Hackmaster because of how detailed the combat was (sadly there were never enough players willing to keep a campaign going).
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Re: Shields & Dual wielding

Postby Greymarch2000 » Thu May 17, 2018 11:45 pm

Atama wrote:
Savioronedge wrote:
Stewbacca wrote:If you really want to get complicated with a shield, read the rules for The Dark Eye by Ulisses. TorgE is the hyper simplification of systems by comparison to TDE.


I have way too little time and way too many games in my head already for that time. That said, the above quote is the first thing I have seen to make we really WANT to get into TDE.

Hmm, same for me... I liked Hackmaster because of how detailed the combat was (sadly there were never enough players willing to keep a campaign going).


Heh, my group just halted our Hackmaster campaign to play TorgE :D

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Re: Shields & Dual wielding

Postby Heketon » Fri Jul 27, 2018 8:53 pm

Hi everyone!

I wanted to ask a question concerning dual wielding (combat options - two weapons). When someone hits an enemy with two melee weapons do you get to apply the damage twice? Or is there just a bonus to defense?

If I missed the answer in the Core Book, could you point me to the section, please?

Thank you!

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Re: Shields & Dual wielding

Postby Wotan » Fri Jul 27, 2018 9:24 pm

Heketon wrote:Hi everyone!

I wanted to ask a question concerning dual wielding (combat options - two weapons). When someone hits an enemy with two melee weapons do you get to apply the damage twice? Or is there just a bonus to defense?

If I missed the answer in the Core Book, could you point me to the section, please?

Thank you!

By RAW using two melee weapons "just" gives +2 to Melee Defense, but, in fairness, that is really good! :)
You only get to apply damage once. Otherwise it would essentially be attacking a single target more than once with the same weapon skill, which isn't allowed, and would be doing so without even taking any kind of penalty for multiple attacks! :shock:

I don't think its specifically spelled out anywhere but IMO it makes sense to allow players to choose which weapon they hit with. (Usually this'll be the one which does more damage, but weapon abilities like Painful or Stymie, or perks like Trademark Weapon, might make a lower damage weapon a worthwhile choice.)
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Heketon
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Re: Shields & Dual wielding

Postby Heketon » Fri Jul 27, 2018 9:39 pm

Wotan wrote:
Heketon wrote:Hi everyone!

I wanted to ask a question concerning dual wielding (combat options - two weapons). When someone hits an enemy with two melee weapons do you get to apply the damage twice? Or is there just a bonus to defense?

If I missed the answer in the Core Book, could you point me to the section, please?

Thank you!

By RAW using two melee weapons "just" gives +2 to Melee Defense, but, in fairness, that is really good! :)
You only get to apply damage once. Otherwise it would essentially be attacking a single target more than once with the same weapon skill, which isn't allowed, and would be doing so without even taking any kind of penalty for multiple attacks! :shock:

I don't think its specifically spelled out anywhere but IMO it makes sense to allow players to choose which weapon they hit with. (Usually this'll be the one which does more damage, but weapon abilities like Painful or Stymie, or perks like Trademark Weapon, might make a lower damage weapon a worthwhile choice.)


Interesting. So, even if you attack an opponent with for example two swords, only one of them would technically hit.The player would choose the weapon with the higher DMG or the one with weapon abilities they want to use and apply it. Are there any instances where both can hit giving a bonus like Rapid Fire for fire combat?

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Re: Shields & Dual wielding

Postby Wotan » Fri Jul 27, 2018 9:53 pm

Heketon wrote:Interesting. So, even if you attack an opponent with for example two swords, only one of them would technically hit.

Mechanically speaking only one of them hits. In terms of how the action is described as playing out I'd let the player describe whatever cool double attack moves they want. :)

Generally speaking, being able to apply damage to an opponent more than once in a round would be kind of game-breaking; it would make possibility rated PCs (& NPCs!) incredibly powerful, and isn't how the rules were balanced to work.

Even if a character attacks someone with different attack skills (which is allowed) they only get to apply their best damage total vs the target's Toughness. The thread's here if you want to read up on the discussion & official rules clarification. :)
viewtopic.php?f=28&t=1862

The player would choose the weapon with the higher DMG or the one with weapon abilities they want to use and apply it.

As I said above, this isn't specifically spelled out in the RAW, but it seems perfectly reasonable to me.

Are there any instances where both can hit giving a bonus like Rapid Fire for fire combat?

Erm, short answer: not that I can think of.
Longer answer: Kiiiiind of. An All-Out Attack is a standard combat option which gives +4 to hit at the cost of being Very Vulnerable (-4 defense.) So the +2 Melee Defense for dual wielding would mitigate the All-Out Attack's V Vulnerable penalty to Melee Defense* to an extent, making it a more viable (less dangerous) tactic.

EDIT:
* Though Vulnerable conditions apply to all defenses, including Interaction Attacks & resisting spells etc, & Dual wielding only boosts Melee Defense
Last edited by Wotan on Sat Jul 28, 2018 6:20 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Atama
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Re: Shields & Dual wielding

Postby Atama » Fri Jul 27, 2018 10:09 pm

I think a fun but not-at-all unbalanced house rule for dual wielding is that if you multitarget, you can choose to have different weapons hit different enemies. For example, you dual wield a sword and a truncheon. You attack 3 minions. You could choose to hit 2 with the sword, dispatching them, and hit the third with the truncheon to incapacitate him without killing him so that you can question him later. All in a single attack.
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Re: Shields & Dual wielding

Postby Wotan » Fri Jul 27, 2018 10:26 pm

Atama wrote:I think a fun but not-at-all unbalanced house rule for dual wielding is that if you multitarget, you can choose to have different weapons hit different enemies. For example, you dual wield a sword and a truncheon. You attack 3 minions. You could choose to hit 2 with the sword, dispatching them, and hit the third with the truncheon to incapacitate him without killing him so that you can question him later. All in a single attack.

Yeah, FWIW I allow that at my table, it's not OP & is a completely believable way for the action to unfold "on-screen". :)

The things I'd want to avoid are, any way of doubling up on damage, or, mixing up the best of both weapons' traits (e.g. if you're hitting with your Electric Katana, because it has great damage & AP, you can't also apply your Riot Stick's Painful ability, to do a bit more shock, & make the damage non-lethal.)

Ultimately, each melee attack is made with one of the weapons' statblocks, but the character is free to choose which weapon is used against each target. *shrug*
Last edited by Wotan on Fri Jul 27, 2018 10:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Shields & Dual wielding

Postby ZorValachan » Fri Jul 27, 2018 10:27 pm

Atama wrote:I think a fun but not-at-all unbalanced house rule for dual wielding is that if you multitarget, you can choose to have different weapons hit different enemies. For example, you dual wield a sword and a truncheon. You attack 3 minions. You could choose to hit 2 with the sword, dispatching them, and hit the third with the truncheon to incapacitate him without killing him so that you can question him later. All in a single attack.


Not sure if I would consider this a House Rule. I'd more lean towards it being just a ruling.

i also agree not to mix up the special properties. That falls back on the mixing ammo discussion from another thread.
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Re: Shields & Dual wielding

Postby Wotan » Fri Jul 27, 2018 10:37 pm

ZorValachan wrote:Not sure if I would consider this a House Rule. I'd more lean towards it being just a ruling.

Agreed. However, while I doubt that anyone's noticed, I'm actually a little bit pedantic. *grin* So I try to be ultra clear on whether I'm offering RAW, or personal rules interpretations, when answering questions. :)

But yeah, IMO, in most circumstances, it would be a bit of a "dick-move" for a GM to stipulate which melee weapon a PC had to use for their attacks. *shrug*
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