Failed multi targeting test

hunal
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Failed multi targeting test

Postby hunal » Mon Jun 11, 2018 1:03 pm

Hello everyone, I have a question about the multi targeting.

The rule:
- specifies that one single test will determine if we hit the targets
- says if it is a success we roll damages for each target
...but it says nothing about failure.

Say I fire using an assault riffle against 3 targets, will a failed test always mean I miss all 3 ? Is there any possibility of partial success ? If not I find it a little bit weird, because the more targets, the more chances I should have to hit at least one... Say I fire using an assault riffle, long burst on a group of 20 foes, I would expect to hit some.

Thanks in advance for your help.

--pascal

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TorgHacker
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Re: Failed multi targeting test

Postby TorgHacker » Mon Jun 11, 2018 1:13 pm

hunal wrote:Hello everyone, I have a question about the multi targeting.

The rule:
- specifies that one single test will determine if we hit the targets
- says if it is a success we roll damages for each target
...but it says nothing about failure.

Say I fire using an assault riffle against 3 targets, will a failed test always mean I miss all 3 ? Is there any possibility of partial success ? If not I find it a little bit weird, because the more targets, the more chances I should have to hit at least one... Say I fire using an assault riffle, long burst on a group of 20 foes, I would expect to hit some.

Thanks in advance for your help.

--pascal


That's the way it works.
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Ulisses North America

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Spatula
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Re: Failed multi targeting test

Postby Spatula » Mon Jun 11, 2018 1:18 pm

hunal wrote:If not I find it a little bit weird, because the more targets, the more chances I should have to hit at least one...

This doesn't make sense to me - it's easier to hit someone if I'm trying to hit him and his buddies, vs. just aiming at him?

Now, if you say, the more bullets/shots, the more chances you should hit at least one, I would agree with that. And that's already represented by the bonus to hit from Short/Long/Heavy Burst.

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Atama
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Re: Failed multi targeting test

Postby Atama » Mon Jun 11, 2018 1:50 pm

hunal wrote:Hello everyone, I have a question about the multi targeting.

The rule:
- specifies that one single test will determine if we hit the targets
- says if it is a success we roll damages for each target
...but it says nothing about failure.

Say I fire using an assault riffle against 3 targets, will a failed test always mean I miss all 3 ? Is there any possibility of partial success ? If not I find it a little bit weird, because the more targets, the more chances I should have to hit at least one... Say I fire using an assault riffle, long burst on a group of 20 foes, I would expect to hit some.

Thanks in advance for your help.

--pascal

If you don’t like the “all or nothing” approach I have an alternative house rule for you.

When you multitarget, normally your penalty is simply (X-1)*2. Two targets is -2, 3 is -4, etc.

So as an alternative have it work this way. Roll once as usual but apply a different penalty to each target. The first target is only at a -1. But for the second target add a penalty of 3 for a -4, and every additional at another -3. So the third is at a -7, the fourth at a -10, etc.

Yes it will become much harder to hit all enemies with the attack, but you’re more likely to hit one or two of them. And it’s definitely more complicated than the standard rules but that’s the trade-off.

Also for something like the Whirlwind perk, or any other situation that allows you to ignore the multitarget penalty for the first two targets, it would work like... No penalty for the first target, -1 on the second, -4 on the third, -7 on the fourth, etc.
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hunal
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Re: Failed multi targeting test

Postby hunal » Mon Jun 11, 2018 2:32 pm

Thanks for the quick responses everybody :) I like this house rule I think I will use it. Thanks again. Best,

RamblingScribe
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Re: Failed multi targeting test

Postby RamblingScribe » Mon Jun 11, 2018 10:21 pm

My problem with that house rule is that once I am attacking two, I may as well attack everyone. My first attack is no worse if I am attacking two people or twenty people.

I tried a house rule where the penalty to hit the first enemy is equal to the total number of attacks -1, and each successive target the penalty increases by the same amount. So 0, -1/-3, -2/-4/-6, -3/-6/-9/-12, etc. I tried a few variations. In the long run, I went back to the RAW, because it was just easier, and my players just learned to temper their multi-attacks based on likely level of success.

Sometimes I think it would be a good idea to give a bonus to hit a crowd if you don't care which target you hit. If I were to do this, I would use the value chart to determine it. That bonus could then offset the penalty to multi-attack. Or something.

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pkitty
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Re: Failed multi targeting test

Postby pkitty » Tue Jun 12, 2018 8:16 am

The trouble comes when you say "I want to attack Thug 1, Thug 2, and Thug 3 with one bullet each," because that's actually a very precise effort. And if those three thugs are standing amid a bunch of innocents or allies, then I absolutely think the penalty is justified.

But if you're saying, "Look GM, all I care about is shooting at that group of thugs. I don't care which ones I hit," then you're right. As long as the thugs are all standing together and there's absolutely no one in or by them that you need to worry about? You should get a bonus.

Fortunately, Torg can handle this already. Just look at the Torg Value chart and apply a bonus to hit based on their size. Then roll the attack, figure out how many wounds you deal based on the damage/Toughness comparison, and divide those wounds between as many thugs as possible.

(Disclaimer: I may be overlooking something, as I'm new to Torg.)
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TorgHacker
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Re: Failed multi targeting test

Postby TorgHacker » Tue Jun 12, 2018 8:26 am

pkitty wrote:The trouble comes when you say "I want to attack Thug 1, Thug 2, and Thug 3 with one bullet each," because that's actually a very precise effort. And if those three thugs are standing amid a bunch of innocents or allies, then I absolutely think the penalty is justified.

But if you're saying, "Look GM, all I care about is shooting at that group of thugs. I don't care which ones I hit," then you're right. As long as the thugs are all standing together and there's absolutely no one in or by them that you need to worry about? You should get a bonus.

Fortunately, Torg can handle this already. Just look at the Torg Value chart and apply a bonus to hit based on their size. Then roll the attack, figure out how many wounds you deal based on the damage/Toughness comparison, and divide those wounds between as many thugs as possible.

(Disclaimer: I may be overlooking something, as I'm new to Torg.)


Yep, you're overlooking something. You get a +4 bonus for doing a Long Burst.

The reason we did it the way we did it is for speed of resolution. Sure, doing it the way you write above would make more 'sense'...and it's pretty similar to how Original Torg actually did it. But it makes resolution significantly longer, for not a lot of benefit.

There's a reason "Full Auto" fire was one of the things that had the most involved convos during development. :-)
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Re: Failed multi targeting test

Postby Atama » Tue Jun 12, 2018 11:46 am

RamblingScribe wrote:My problem with that house rule is that once I am attacking two, I may as well attack everyone. My first attack is no worse if I am attacking two people or twenty people.

I tried a house rule where the penalty to hit the first enemy is equal to the total number of attacks -1, and each successive target the penalty increases by the same amount. So 0, -1/-3, -2/-4/-6, -3/-6/-9/-12, etc. I tried a few variations. In the long run, I went back to the RAW, because it was just easier, and my players just learned to temper their multi-attacks based on likely level of success.

Your house rule is better than mine. :)

I honestly am fine with the rules as-is. They’re uncomplicated and don’t force the combat to pause while you sit there calculating the odds of hitting each target.
“You are a bad person, and should feel bad.”
-TorgHacker (being tongue-in-cheek :D)

utsukushi
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Re: Failed multi targeting test

Postby utsukushi » Wed Jun 13, 2018 7:14 pm

Oh! Something else we've all forgotten - there's already the suggestion for handling mobs as, er, mobs. Which, as I understand it, means that you can do, say, a Long Burst, adding +4 to your attack roll, increasing your chance of adding Bonus Dice - OR you can Multi-Target and directly hit multiple enemies. Or both, I suppose. Either way, your damage is aggregate, so it `spills over'.

So... if you're facing a mob of, say, five Shocktroopers, so they have Toughness 8, Shock 8, Wounds 0, and Dodge 8. And I'll assume in all cases the die comes up... let's say 14. So if you fired an AK-47 into that group, just one shot, you'd roll your Bonus Die - say it comes up a 4. That puts your damage to 18, 10 over their Toughness, so you remove two (two Wounds) and cause 4 Shock basically to the next one in line. If you had done a Long Burst, your attack total would have been an 18, which gives you a second Bonus Die. That would actually have to roll a five or more to do any better, but it does have two BDs and therefor two chances to do that.

Alternately, instead of firing a Long Burst, say you Multi-Targeted. So your attack total was effectively 12 for two shots, leaving you at your base damage of 14. That's actually still 6 over their Toughness, so you do... 1 Wound, twice, and 2 Shock, twice. Removing two and causing 4 Shock, which is exactly the same as the Long Burst, which I think works out nicely and might not even be a lucky coincidence.

And if you Multi-Targeted and did a Long Burst, you'd only add +2 to your roll, which in the case of a 14 wouldn't actually help you any so it would be just like if you had gone with one or the other... but if your roll had been, like, a 17, that would put you up to Outstanding on two shots giving you, again, more BDs to potentially ramp the damage up even higher, and if not, still taking at least half of them down in one burst. On the other hand, you're also taking that increased risk of Mishap from the Burst.

If you were an Elven Archer firing a Composite Longbow, your base damage would have been 13 and of course you can't Burst, but you get your free Multi-Target -- so you would have hit twice for 13 plus a Bonus Die. So if that only rolled a 1, you'd cause 1 Wound, twice, and 2 Shock, twice; but if it rolled, say, 5, giving you 18 damage, you'd do 2 wounds, twice, to remove four of them, and then 4 shock, twice, adding up to eight to remove that last one.

I think that's all right... right?

But it does look to me like that models firing into a mob, versus firing at individuals within a mob, pretty effectively without getting into the Fibonacci series. (NOT that there is anything wrong with the Fibonacci series. It's my second-favorite series, after Dr. Who.)


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