Beta Primers are out

Staffan
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Re: Beta Primers are out

Postby Staffan » Mon Jul 16, 2018 4:03 pm

TorgHacker wrote:
Staffan wrote:It's nice to see a preview of the higher-level game, though I have some issues with it:

A minor quibble with Pep Talk: why use the target's Spirit as the DN? Generally, buffs either work automatically or use a fixed DN (usually the standard 10).


1. Buffs like the enhance spell that boost a stat use the stat's DN.

Good point. I was looking at other perks, which are either automatic (e.g. Rally) or have a fixed DN (Helper). But you're right that Enhance uses the target's current stat as the DN (though Bless and Energize don't). That sort of makes sense though, given the exponential nature of the stats (going from 12 to 13 is a bigger jump than 8 to 9, so it should be harder to do). But Pep Talk uses a different stat, which creates a bit of a weird effect where it's harder to get people with a strong spirit to go that extra mile.

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TorgHacker
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Re: Beta Primers are out

Postby TorgHacker » Mon Jul 16, 2018 5:23 pm

Staffan wrote:
TorgHacker wrote:
Staffan wrote:It's nice to see a preview of the higher-level game, though I have some issues with it:

A minor quibble with Pep Talk: why use the target's Spirit as the DN? Generally, buffs either work automatically or use a fixed DN (usually the standard 10).


1. Buffs like the enhance spell that boost a stat use the stat's DN.

Good point. I was looking at other perks, which are either automatic (e.g. Rally) or have a fixed DN (Helper). But you're right that Enhance uses the target's current stat as the DN (though Bless and Energize don't). That sort of makes sense though, given the exponential nature of the stats (going from 12 to 13 is a bigger jump than 8 to 9, so it should be harder to do). But Pep Talk uses a different stat, which creates a bit of a weird effect where it's harder to get people with a strong spirit to go that extra mile.


Well, consider that all races have a limit. The closer you get to that limit, the more you've actually met your 'potential'.

So someone who is normally frightened, could much more easily become emboldened by a good speech from Captain America, but Thor? Doesn't impact him much at all, because he's already freaking heroic. :-)
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Fuzzy
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Re: Beta Primers are out

Postby Fuzzy » Mon Jul 16, 2018 11:49 pm

Nullify - our players loved the concept of this Perk (i.e. more reality stuff to differentiate Core Earth), but when we actually considered its utility, well... CURRENTLY it doesn't affect much. Even other perks that let you spend possibilities usually do so to manipulate Destiny cards. The only perk it can cancel that makes a difference lets a character spend a possibility to have all allies recover 2 shock. Not exactly common among enemies...

So, the presumption is... there are going to be a fair number of monster powers that require possibilities to activate?

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Spatula
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Re: Beta Primers are out

Postby Spatula » Tue Jul 17, 2018 1:50 am

Only current example that I can find is Baruk Kaah, who can spend one to take a 2nd turn. Unless you count Lanala and the Wasp Queen's ability to spend shock and have it count as a Possibility.

JohnBiles
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Re: Beta Primers are out

Postby JohnBiles » Tue Jul 17, 2018 2:51 am

The way the perk rules are worded in the core sounds like most perks are not limited by Cosm, even if they're more common there, as it says 'Cosm: The cosm the Perks are typically found in.', rather than 'the Cosm you have to be from to take it.

Should this actually mean you normally DO have to be from that cosm? As the wording of 'Create Focus' and 'Sense Stelae' both indicate you don't have to be from Core Earth... which would mean you have to be from Core Earth to take that Perk.

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pkitty
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Re: Beta Primers are out

Postby pkitty » Tue Jul 17, 2018 10:06 am

JohnBiles wrote:The way the perk rules are worded in the core sounds like most perks are not limited by Cosm, even if they're more common there, as it says 'Cosm: The cosm the Perks are typically found in.', rather than 'the Cosm you have to be from to take it.

Should this actually mean you normally DO have to be from that cosm? As the wording of 'Create Focus' and 'Sense Stelae' both indicate you don't have to be from Core Earth... which would mean you have to be from Core Earth to take that Perk.

Yes, you MUST be from the listed cosm to take the perk. If you are not from Core Earth you cannot normally take Reality perks; if you are not from the Living Land, you cannot normally take Savagery perks; and so on. That is, in fact, what the new Cosm Adaptation perk (from the Beta Clearance Player's Primer) is designed to get around.

A common house rule is to allow cross-cosm perks, but then they count as a personal contradiction; see link in my .sig for details. But that's definitely a house rule.
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Atama
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Re: Beta Primers are out

Postby Atama » Tue Jul 17, 2018 2:28 pm

Like pkitty said, if a perk lists a cosm that cosm is a requirement, same as some perks require a particular race, minimum attribute rank, number of skill adds, or another perk for eligibility.
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Murcushio
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Re: Beta Primers are out

Postby Murcushio » Thu Jul 19, 2018 2:33 am

JohnBiles wrote:The way the perk rules are worded in the core sounds like most perks are not limited by Cosm, even if they're more common there, as it says 'Cosm: The cosm the Perks are typically found in.', rather than 'the Cosm you have to be from to take it.

Should this actually mean you normally DO have to be from that cosm? As the wording of 'Create Focus' and 'Sense Stelae' both indicate you don't have to be from Core Earth... which would mean you have to be from Core Earth to take that Perk.


I'm one of the players in the game run by JohnBiles, and I also would like official clarification on this score, because myself and at least one other PC built characters on this assumption.

Because as near as I can tell (and someone correct me if I'm wrong here) the core rules in no way, shape, or form ever lay out the fact that you must be from the Cosm the perk is tagged with in order to take it. It's literally not part of the rules as written. (Again, if I missed a sidebar or note somewhere in the core, I will be cheerfully corrected.) The only thing you must have to take the Perk is any listed pre-requisite.

The Living Land sourcebook seemed to reinforce this interpretation, because that sourcebook made sure to very carefully spell out when a category of perks wasn't accessible to non-natives; there's an whole section of Faith perks in there that very clearly actually say "none of the perks listed here can be taken if you're not a native of this cosm." This is something the core emphatically doesn't do, and moreover, it is something that would not be necessary to actually list out UNLESS the default assumption is a perk is available to all comers and only isn't if it explicitly says it is not.

But then the Beta Clearance primer hits, and it has a bunch of perks in that only really make sense in the case of perks being cosm-limited by default.

This could be much clearer.

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Wotan
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Re: Beta Primers are out

Postby Wotan » Thu Jul 19, 2018 4:26 am

Murcushio wrote:
JohnBiles wrote:The way the perk rules are worded in the core sounds like most perks are not limited by Cosm, even if they're more common there, as it says 'Cosm: The cosm the Perks are typically found in.', rather than 'the Cosm you have to be from to take it.

Should this actually mean you normally DO have to be from that cosm? As the wording of 'Create Focus' and 'Sense Stelae' both indicate you don't have to be from Core Earth... which would mean you have to be from Core Earth to take that Perk.


I'm one of the players in the game run by JohnBiles, and I also would like official clarification on this score, because myself and at least one other PC built characters on this assumption.

Because as near as I can tell (and someone correct me if I'm wrong here) the core rules in no way, shape, or form ever lay out the fact that you must be from the Cosm the perk is tagged with in order to take it. It's literally not part of the rules as written. (Again, if I missed a sidebar or note somewhere in the core, I will be cheerfully corrected.) The only thing you must have to take the Perk is any listed pre-requisite.

The Living Land sourcebook seemed to reinforce this interpretation, because that sourcebook made sure to very carefully spell out when a category of perks wasn't accessible to non-natives; there's an whole section of Faith perks in there that very clearly actually say "none of the perks listed here can be taken if you're not a native of this cosm." This is something the core emphatically doesn't do, and moreover, it is something that would not be necessary to actually list out UNLESS the default assumption is a perk is available to all comers and only isn't if it explicitly says it is not.

But then the Beta Clearance primer hits, and it has a bunch of perks in that only really make sense in the case of perks being cosm-limited by default.

This could be much clearer.


The second para of the section about Perks on P70 of the Core seems fairly clear, IMO.
Perks are listed on pages 84 through 105, and
are often restricted by a character’s home cosm
or might have other prerequisites.
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Spatula
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Re: Beta Primers are out

Postby Spatula » Thu Jul 19, 2018 10:25 am

It could be clearer. I think the "often" in the book quote is referring to perk categories that are open to all cosms, e.g. prowess, and thus aren't "restricted." This has come up before here in the forums, and the official word is that you can't take perks that aren't from your cosm. Well, unless you have that new Adaptation perk. Pulp powers for all!


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