How much does an 'Up' do?

Arcesilaus
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Re: How much does an 'Up' do?

Postby Arcesilaus » Fri Jul 20, 2018 11:39 am

Wotan wrote:If we're taking "roll" to mean the act of generating an Action Total, that first sentence in the Up description doesn't make much sense; it would imply that an Up gives an extra action, which clearly isn't the intent, because that's what Flurry does.
To my mind, it makes more sense if those first 2 sentences are just explicitly spelling out that the target of an Up gets to roll an extra D20 which is added to the first D20 they roll when generating their Action Total.

So, I'm not convinced that the book's description of Up actually helps clear up the question of which rolls might be affected during an Up round.

I read it the same way as Wotan, which is not to say that Up DEFINITELY applies to every roll in a round, but the wording is vague enough that it might (hence this thread).

Part if my reasoning is that, if Up applies to EVERY PC roll that round, it's super-duper powerful! As we've seen, a single PC can make quite a few rolls in a given round, which, in a party of four PCs, means a TON of rolls that aren't going to fail. Add to that a Seize Initiative (or Flurry) card, and your Dramatic Scene is over in two rounds.

I mean, I'm all for the PCs being able to shine and do cool stuff, but it seems like a bit of a letdown.
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Greymarch2000
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Re: How much does an 'Up' do?

Postby Greymarch2000 » Fri Jul 20, 2018 12:06 pm

Well "Up" is not a PC exclusive phenomena. My group was being chased by an Oda Hornet attack helicopter last night and the Drama card said that it went second but had an Up result. I let them know it would be firing rockets at them with that Up in mind. Luckily for them they expended resources to mind control the pilot into doing a nosedive instead. :)

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TorgHacker
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Re: How much does an 'Up' do?

Postby TorgHacker » Fri Jul 20, 2018 12:15 pm

Arcesilaus wrote:
Wotan wrote:If we're taking "roll" to mean the act of generating an Action Total, that first sentence in the Up description doesn't make much sense; it would imply that an Up gives an extra action, which clearly isn't the intent, because that's what Flurry does.
To my mind, it makes more sense if those first 2 sentences are just explicitly spelling out that the target of an Up gets to roll an extra D20 which is added to the first D20 they roll when generating their Action Total.

So, I'm not convinced that the book's description of Up actually helps clear up the question of which rolls might be affected during an Up round.

I read it the same way as Wotan, which is not to say that Up DEFINITELY applies to every roll in a round, but the wording is vague enough that it might (hence this thread).

Part if my reasoning is that, if Up applies to EVERY PC roll that round, it's super-duper powerful! As we've seen, a single PC can make quite a few rolls in a given round, which, in a party of four PCs, means a TON of rolls that aren't going to fail. Add to that a Seize Initiative (or Flurry) card, and your Dramatic Scene is over in two rounds.

I mean, I'm all for the PCs being able to shine and do cool stuff, but it seems like a bit of a letdown.


It is a super-duper powerful condition. That's why we really restricted how many situations it comes up in. ;)

However, it is a bit vague and I'm double checking if it's supposed to apply for every action a character takes (and it definitely applies to each character on that side) or if it's just the first one.
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TorgHacker
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Re: How much does an 'Up' do?

Postby TorgHacker » Fri Jul 20, 2018 12:59 pm

The extra roll is on every action a character takes on that side. So reconnections, Flurries, all get it.
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Arcesilaus
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Re: How much does an 'Up' do?

Postby Arcesilaus » Fri Jul 20, 2018 1:01 pm

TorgHacker wrote:
It is a super-duper powerful condition. That's why we really restricted how many situations it comes up in. ;)

I appreciate that it doesn't show up all that often on the cards, but, players being players, they find ways to milk it, including the two examples I mentioned above (Flurry, Seize Initiative). Also, the card that showed up in the game last night had the Heroes Up during a Dramatic Scene and ABCD on the DRS line. Which means that they completed the entire chase scene on the second round of the combat and the first round of the chase.

Again, I like letting the PCs shine. But, in this case, neither the Scene nor the Skill Resolution were particularly Dramatic.

O

PS I totally recognize that I did some things wrong here, including letting them carry over cards in their pools from the previous fight (since it led without pause into the chase) and not predicting the possibility of the Seize Initiative & Flurry, which I could have compensated for. I'm not really complaining about Up; I think it's a cool effect. I just want to be sure that my players aren't taking advantage of it beyond its intent.
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Arcesilaus
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Re: How much does an 'Up' do?

Postby Arcesilaus » Fri Jul 20, 2018 1:01 pm

TorgHacker wrote:The extra roll is on every action a character takes on that side. So reconnections, Flurries, all get it.

Fair enough. Thanks!
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Wotan
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Re: How much does an 'Up' do?

Postby Wotan » Fri Jul 20, 2018 1:08 pm

Arcesilaus wrote:
Wotan wrote:If we're taking "roll" to mean the act of generating an Action Total, that first sentence in the Up description doesn't make much sense; it would imply that an Up gives an extra action, which clearly isn't the intent, because that's what Flurry does.
To my mind, it makes more sense if those first 2 sentences are just explicitly spelling out that the target of an Up gets to roll an extra D20 which is added to the first D20 they roll when generating their Action Total.

So, I'm not convinced that the book's description of Up actually helps clear up the question of which rolls might be affected during an Up round.

I read it the same way as Wotan, which is not to say that Up DEFINITELY applies to every roll in a round, but the wording is vague enough that it might (hence this thread).

Part if my reasoning is that, if Up applies to EVERY PC roll that round, it's super-duper powerful! As we've seen, a single PC can make quite a few rolls in a given round, which, in a party of four PCs, means a TON of rolls that aren't going to fail. Add to that a Seize Initiative (or Flurry) card, and your Dramatic Scene is over in two rounds.

I mean, I'm all for the PCs being able to shine and do cool stuff, but it seems like a bit of a letdown.

Up is a powerful condition but, with the exception of Flurries, most of the extra Action Totals that PCs generate (beyond their main Action) are defensive, or at least not directly offensive.
So I don't think applying Up to all the round's Action Totals is that much more powerful than only applying it to the main Action.

Clever card play by players can magnify the effects of an Up round but, in my experience, players like to feel clever so I'm happy to let them have that. I'll even congratulate them when they pull off a blinder (like the time when they managed to collect both of each of the "Seize Initiative" & "Masterplan" cards, allowing them to keep a "Heroes' Flurry" Drama card in play for 5 rounds of a Dramatic scene! :shock: )
The agency which the card play gives players, to control the story & action, is one of the things which makes Torg such a good game, IMO. *shrug*

But I'm also the sort of GM who has no problem with having reinforcements show up, if the PCs are having it too easy & it makes for a better narrative, (so long as it's not immersion-breaking.)
That fight where my lot pulled off their "Flurry spam" still lasted a total of 6 rounds, & didn't feel like a walk in the park to them at any point before the Villain went down.
On the narrative level, they came out of it feeling like their PCs were the action heroes which Storm Knights are meant to be, & on the mechanical level had the satisfaction of having defeated ludicrous odds through skillful, co-operative play.

OTOH, sometimes, when they put a villain down fast, it's nice to let the players have that moment of feeling like they decisively kicked backside. Narratively speaking, it works for me in the sense of establishing PC competence/heroism, but it can also be a set up for the next tough fight.
GM: "OK guys, well done, it only took you a couple of rounds to totally kick Grendel's arse."
Player: "Cool, do we get our end of Act XP now then?... Why are you grinning like that?"

/digression *ahem* :oops:

EDIT: gosh! lots of extra posts! It appears that the matter was resolved while I was collecting my thoughts (waffling on.) Doh! :D
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ZorValachan
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Re: How much does an 'Up' do?

Postby ZorValachan » Fri Jul 20, 2018 1:34 pm

TorgHacker wrote:The extra roll is on every action a character takes on that side. So reconnections, Flurries, all get it.

Ok. Official answered. I was wrong. It just got a lot more powerful in my game.
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Big Lurker
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Re: How much does an 'Up' do?

Postby Big Lurker » Sat Jul 21, 2018 10:05 pm

TorgHacker wrote:The extra roll is on every action a character takes on that side. So reconnections, Flurries, all get it.


Does the drama line always apply on a Flurry? For instance, if the line was 'Fatigue', would the character apply the shock twice?

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Wotan
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Re: How much does an 'Up' do?

Postby Wotan » Sun Jul 22, 2018 9:26 am

Big Lurker wrote:
TorgHacker wrote:The extra roll is on every action a character takes on that side. So reconnections, Flurries, all get it.


Does the drama line always apply on a Flurry? For instance, if the line was 'Fatigue', would the character apply the shock twice?

I'd say it varies, based on the Conflict Line effect's description.
Fatigue specifies that it kicks in at the end of each PC's turn, so if they choose to play a Flurry Card that round then I think they probably do take the Fatigue hit twice. A Flurry is a full extra turn.
Confused says it applies for the round, so again I'd say it effects a Flurried action.
Setback talks about those effected missing their next turn, so I'd be inclined to say that only kicks in once, i.e. a character could get an action that round by playing a Flurry. The alternative is that there's no point playing a Flurry that round, as the action would be immediately lost by the Setback.
Stymied talks about effecting the character until the end of their next turn, so it sounds like it's an effect which is applied at the very start of that side's turn. I could see it maybe effecting a flurried action, but given the ambiguity I'm inclined to only apply this one once.
Surge reads as if it's something which happens at the very start of the round, so I don't think a Flurry would trip it again.

Ultimately a player is never forced to play their Flurry card. So, as long as the player knows how the mechanics interact beforehand, I don't see a problem with some conditions effecting the Flurry action (other than remembering which conditions effect it & which don't.)
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