The Nile Empire is Better at Everything

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JohnK
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Re: The Nile Empire is Better at Everything

Postby JohnK » Tue Jul 24, 2018 5:33 pm

Hullo, TorgHacker,

TorgHacker wrote:BINGO. :-)


No, no, no, Deanna! That's the limitation "Only works when playing Bingo"! :)
=====
"They're High Lords, for God's sake! You can't just walk up to one and say, "How you doing? Feel like dying now?" you know!" - Abraham Horowitz, priest

JohnK
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Spatula
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Re: The Nile Empire is Better at Everything

Postby Spatula » Tue Jul 24, 2018 6:15 pm

fougerec wrote:Neither Tarzan or Doc are superhuman (well they're not meant to be but I think sometimes writers outside Burroughs or Dent forget). Doc also has a wide assortment of gadgets available to him.

It's been awhile but isn't Tarzan at least as strong as a gorilla in the original stories? Wrestles big animals and such? Even if Burroughs didn't think Tarzan's strength was super-human, from what I recall the character's exploits clearly were.

fougerec
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Re: The Nile Empire is Better at Everything

Postby fougerec » Tue Jul 24, 2018 6:35 pm

Spatula wrote:
fougerec wrote:Neither Tarzan or Doc are superhuman (well they're not meant to be but I think sometimes writers outside Burroughs or Dent forget). Doc also has a wide assortment of gadgets available to him.

It's been awhile but isn't Tarzan at least as strong as a gorilla in the original stories? Wrestles big animals and such? Even if Burroughs didn't think Tarzan's strength was super-human, from what I recall the character's exploits clearly were.


A silverback would be strength 14 in Torg Eternity. If Tarzan was peak human, that would be 13. Probably close enough without needing Super Attribute, except to save him some XP :)

So yeah, if he was as strong as a gorilla then 14 or so for sure. In the books though he rarely relies on brute strength. He's fast as a cat and smart (something many overlook).

Wakshani
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Re: The Nile Empire is Better at Everything

Postby Wakshani » Tue Jul 24, 2018 11:25 pm

Spatula wrote:
fougerec wrote:Neither Tarzan or Doc are superhuman (well they're not meant to be but I think sometimes writers outside Burroughs or Dent forget). Doc also has a wide assortment of gadgets available to him.

It's been awhile but isn't Tarzan at least as strong as a gorilla in the original stories? Wrestles big animals and such? Even if Burroughs didn't think Tarzan's strength was super-human, from what I recall the character's exploits clearly were.


Sortakinda. He wrestles assorted big critters (including a dinosaur and a man-sized seahorse … Tarzan books can get kinda out there.) but never, like, hurls a boulder across a city block or whatever. His gig was being the "Noble Savage", a man who had all the innate goodness and awesomeness of being human but without the wretchedness brought on by society, greed, and so on. He's very much a character of the time. His physical side is impressive, but the more impressive is the mental, there. He's literate in English without knowing how to speak it due to finding books in is dead parents' cabin, figuring out what they were, then teaching himself to read words with no frame of reference, then eventually meets a Frenchman who teaches him both English and French … he winds up speaking around a dozen languages, picking up news ones "In a few days" (3-4 days on average), master etiquette, and I *want* to say he knocks out mathematics at a chalkboard so fast that it leaves professors dazed, but I'm not 100% on that one.

He can also talk to any animal and mimic any sound, including making perfect gunshots with just his mouth.

When you get to actual 10930's pulps, things get far out there in a few places. Tons of two-fisted detectives with a gadget, but some are way more powerful. Mandrake the Magician was famous for hypnotism faster than a finger snap, but he also broke out invisibility, teleportation, shape-changing, levitation, telekinesis... he had a huge bag of tricks. Olga Mesmer was a super-strong hypnotist with X-Ray vision, while Fantomah … man, what powers DIDN'T she have? Flight, super-speed, invulnerability, super-strength, the ability to turn dozens of people into butterflies or open the pits of Hell under their feet to swallow them whole … she's … boy. Fantomah stories are a special-kind of out-there. If you liked latter-day Spectre stories, you'll LOVE Fantomah.

Rocketeer
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Re: The Nile Empire is Better at Everything

Postby Rocketeer » Wed Jul 25, 2018 12:44 am

Wotan wrote:
TorgHacker wrote:<dusts off hands>

Well that solved that issue.

Pulp Martial Arts is gone. ;)

*pouts sulkily*

Nah, mostly kidding. I only say "mostly" cause I'm now a little concerned that NE might get hit too hard by the nerf bat. To prevent the perception that it's stepping on other Realms' toes too much.

That’s my concern as well. At this point the game is still young and only the Living Land has a sourcebook. Therefore, we don’t have a lot of data from actual play experience. I have played in games where an ability at first appeared to be awesomely powerful, but in actual play it turned out not to be so great. While other abilities that looked rather mundane turned out to be quite useful. Also, due to the wide variety of threats in Torg and the variability of the cards, which abilities turn out to be the most useful can vary considerably from Scene to Scene.

Based on just the Core Rulebook and my one play group, Pulp Powers do not seem overpowered. The characters in the group are at Beta level (65 XP), and if I had to rank them in order of overall power and effectiveness, I would put the Electric Samurai first, followed by the Cyberwitch, then the Pulp Hero and the Core Earth Hero. In fact, the Pulp Hero is the one character in the group that has repeatedly come close to death.

One of the cool things about Torg is being able to make a wide variety of characters that are fun to play. From the previews, it looks like the Nile Empire sourcebook is going to add a lot of fun character concepts to the game, and I see that as a good thing.

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Atama
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Re: The Nile Empire is Better at Everything

Postby Atama » Wed Jul 25, 2018 2:00 am

Wakshani wrote:Fantomah … man, what powers DIDN'T she have? Flight, super-speed, invulnerability, super-strength, the ability to turn dozens of people into butterflies or open the pits of Hell under their feet to swallow them whole … she's … boy. Fantomah stories are a special-kind of out-there. If you liked latter-day Spectre stories, you'll LOVE Fantomah.

If you think about it, Fantomah is Lanala. Very much so.
“You are a bad person, and should feel bad.”
-TorgHacker (being tongue-in-cheek :D)

fougerec
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Re: The Nile Empire is Better at Everything

Postby fougerec » Wed Jul 25, 2018 10:05 am

Back to the original post - generally speaking I find something is broken if everyone finds a way to take it. Are there pure Nile groups out there? If no is it because the GM said "no", because the players didn't realize or because there's enough cool things elsewhere?

vaminion
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Re: The Nile Empire is Better at Everything

Postby vaminion » Wed Jul 25, 2018 12:54 pm

I don't know if Nile is necessarily better, but it certainly seems like it does everything more easily. Both in terms of building the character and actual power use once you're at the table.

For example, if i wanted to build a psychic swordsman I can jump through the hoops to build him using PP or Tharkold. Or I can build him in Nile and take some powers that are always on, don't require concentration checks to maintain, still be able to take Spellcater if I want utility powers, and get access to super attribute/skill in the process.

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Atama
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Re: The Nile Empire is Better at Everything

Postby Atama » Wed Jul 25, 2018 1:52 pm

fougerec wrote:Back to the original post - generally speaking I find something is broken if everyone finds a way to take it. Are there pure Nile groups out there? If no is it because the GM said "no", because the players didn't realize or because there's enough cool things elsewhere?

My character concept (big strong brute who also heals with Miracles) would probably have worked better if I’d made him from Nile. The reason he’s from LL is because I thought it would be more fun. But from a mechanics, min/max perspective Nike probably would’ve been better.

I think I made the right choice though, since he’s fun.
“You are a bad person, and should feel bad.”
-TorgHacker (being tongue-in-cheek :D)

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TorgHacker
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Re: The Nile Empire is Better at Everything

Postby TorgHacker » Wed Jul 25, 2018 2:09 pm

Atama wrote:My character concept (big strong brute who also heals with Miracles) would probably have worked better if I’d made him from Nile. The reason he’s from LL is because I thought it would be more fun. But from a mechanics, min/max perspective Nike probably would’ve been better.

I think I made the right choice though, since he’s fun.


I think that's a key.

We never had a mandate to make everything equal across all cosms for all possible archetypes. However, we wanted every cosm to have reasons to take characters from that cosm, and reasons to play in that cosm. I know that there were several rules development discussions I had where my explicit goal was to make certain archetypes viable and fun. The 'brute' is actually the one that comes to mind. It was easy to make the ninja a viable build, but it was tougher to make the brute one. Hence Max Dex Armor, making Toughness based on Strength, that sort of thing.

It's also why the Law of Masks is in play. Pulp (and super) heroes don't walk around with armor on. So they need "something" to lessen the impact of hits akin to armor. At least while in the Nile Empire anyway. Same thing with the different arcane traditions in the Nile. If you want to be the one of the best 'diviners' in the game, pick Mathematics. If you want to be one of the best explorers in the game, pick Engineering. If you want to be one of the best generalists in the game, pick Pulp Sorcery (well, at least until Aysle comes out).

Note, this is also why we've made a point at restricting miracles, psionic powers, and spells in lists...so that there would be reasons to be from somewhere to take certain archetypes.

The background and genre of a character does matter. Sure maybe a Nile Empire build for a particular character might be better (at least for now, given we only have one cosm book out, and the next one is the Nile Empire), but that's a vastly different roleplaying experience than if they were from Tharkold or the Living Land.
Deanna Gilbert
Torg Eternity designer
Ulisses North America


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