Questions about Concentration

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Aenno
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Re: Questions about Concentration

Postby Aenno » Tue Aug 07, 2018 10:53 pm

utsukushi wrote:But you're also quite right that the Concentration penalty specifically doesn't apply to anything but other uses of Powers, so why would activities other than Power uses interfere with Concentration?

Circumstances other then Power already interfere with Concentration (taking physical damage or being a victim of Interaction attack) in Core. It's possible to make a mage lost his Concentration by Trick or Maneuver, without any magic. It's not some kind of magical part of your mind which isn't connected with everything else; well, it IS if you meet DN for Concentration.
I argue fiercely, but I never believed disagreement should be capital offence.

I'm editing my posts often. English isn't my native language, and I'm doing a lot of mistakes; that, with thoughtful rereading, I often found and want to edit.

mica
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Re: Questions about Concentration

Postby mica » Wed Aug 08, 2018 5:53 am

How many times have you arrived at work, parked up and can't remember driving or any of the journey? You must have been concentrating else you would have had a crash but was you aware of it? When you do something so routinely you autopilot. I see the concentration mechanic along these lines; a marching song, mantra, drumming your fingers or driving the daily route. Something that you can set a part of your mind to while doing something else.

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Aenno
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Re: Questions about Concentration

Postby Aenno » Wed Aug 08, 2018 12:19 pm

mica wrote:How many times have you arrived at work, parked up and can't remember driving or any of the journey? You must have been concentrating else you would have had a crash but was you aware of it? When you do something so routinely you autopilot.

Yes; but imagine you're autopiloting using bus to get into work, but this little peace of paper on bus stop telling that your bus route was changed. It's quite possible you wouldn't notice if you're concentrating on something else. I know a man who worked in same office for 30 years; his job changed, but still he came to old office sometimes, because it's how his autopilot set.
I argue fiercely, but I never believed disagreement should be capital offence.

I'm editing my posts often. English isn't my native language, and I'm doing a lot of mistakes; that, with thoughtful rereading, I often found and want to edit.

mica
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Re: Questions about Concentration

Postby mica » Thu Aug 09, 2018 4:06 am

Absolutely, that is why there are concentration checks when there needs to be conscious concentration - such as driving past a school at kicking out time.

utsukushi
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Re: Questions about Concentration

Postby utsukushi » Thu Aug 09, 2018 3:01 pm

Aenno wrote:Circumstances other then Power already interfere with Concentration (taking physical damage or being a victim of Interaction attack) in Core. It's possible to make a mage lost his Concentration by Trick or Maneuver, without any magic. It's not some kind of magical part of your mind which isn't connected with everything else; well, it IS if you meet DN for Concentration.

Happily I never have been, but I'm pretty sure getting shot interferes with all kinds of other activities. I bet I'd even stop complaining about Speed Demon. ...OK, everybody stop looking at me like that. That wasn't meant as a suggestion!

You're right, though, I was a little unclear. Concentration on a power doesn't interfere with your other Mind skills, so why would those Mind skills interfere with your Concentration on a power? Iceshard also had a good point that if Mind Skills force a Concentration check, that means Mind-based powers (Precognition, Divination, and Alteration) all have this added penalty, while Faith, Kinesis, Telepathy, Apportation and Conjuration all don't. That's especially unfair since someone who has, say, Telepathy, probably has a more Charisma-oriented character in general, and might not even use Mind skills that much, while a Diviner likely has a high Mind and will have attached more Skills to go along with it.

As a suggestion, if that rule is actually working for you in general, you might think about taking it out from "Mind", per se, and make it "any Skill using the same base Attribute"? That would even that wrinkle out, at least. Concentrating on a Miracle is using your Spirit, so if you use your Spirit for anything else, you'll need a Concentration check, etc.

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Aenno
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Re: Questions about Concentration

Postby Aenno » Thu Aug 09, 2018 3:46 pm

utsukushi wrote:You're right, though, I was a little unclear. Concentration on a power doesn't interfere with your other Mind skills, so why would those Mind skills interfere with your Concentration on a power?

Because by the way Concentration implemented it's other actions or situations interrupt Concentration, not Concentration interrupts other actions. If things like Find would be possible to "store", I'd use Concentration rules for them as well.

utsukushi wrote:Iceshard also had a good point that if Mind Skills force a Concentration check, that means Mind-based powers (Precognition, Divination, and Alteration) all have this added penalty, while Faith, Kinesis, Telepathy, Apportation and Conjuration all don't.

Brrrr. I'm starting to afraid my English isn't good enough to get a problem.
Case 1. I'm having on Concentration any spell, from any school, let's say Telepathy, and doing any Mind action. In my rule it's rolling Concentration, nothing specially bothering Mind-based casters.
Case 2. I'm having on Concentration any spell, from any school, and using any other power. I'm rolling Concentration no matter what school is, because it's core rule - you're rolling Concentration every time you're casting a spell. No matter school, type, reason - it's always Concentration check.
"If a character suffers a successful interaction or damaging atack while maintaining a spell with a Duration of Concentration, or casting a spell that hasn’t been completed yet, he must pass a willpower or Spirit test." - Core, p. 185.
"Should a character suffer a successful interaction or damaging atack while maintaining a miracle with a Duration of Concentration, or invoking a power that isn’t yet completed, he must pass a willpower or Spirit test." - Core, p. 197.
"If a psionicist suffers a successful interaction or damaging atack while maintaining a power with a Duration of Concentration, or preparing a power that hasn’t been activated yet, she must pass a willpower or Spirit test." - Core, p. 205.
Case 3. I'm not having any spells on Concentration and using any Mind skills. I'm not rolling Concentration, because Concentration rule is applied only when you have spells on Concentration.
What's the case I missed?
I argue fiercely, but I never believed disagreement should be capital offence.

I'm editing my posts often. English isn't my native language, and I'm doing a lot of mistakes; that, with thoughtful rereading, I often found and want to edit.

iceshard87
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Re: Questions about Concentration

Postby iceshard87 » Thu Aug 09, 2018 4:09 pm

Aenno wrote:
utsukushi wrote:You're right, though, I was a little unclear. Concentration on a power doesn't interfere with your other Mind skills, so why would those Mind skills interfere with your Concentration on a power?

Because by the way Concentration implemented it's other actions or situations interrupt Concentration, not Concentration interrupts other actions. If things like Find would be possible to "store", I'd use Concentration rules for them as well.

utsukushi wrote:Iceshard also had a good point that if Mind Skills force a Concentration check, that means Mind-based powers (Precognition, Divination, and Alteration) all have this added penalty, while Faith, Kinesis, Telepathy, Apportation and Conjuration all don't.

Brrrr. I'm starting to afraid my English isn't good enough to get a problem.
Case 1. I'm having on Concentration any spell, from any school, let's say Telepathy, and doing any Mind action. In my rule it's rolling Concentration, nothing specially bothering Mind-based casters.
Case 2. I'm having on Concentration any spell, from any school, and using any other power. I'm rolling Concentration no matter what school is, because it's core rule - you're rolling Concentration every time you're casting a spell. No matter school, type, reason - it's always Concentration check.
"If a character suffers a successful interaction or damaging atack while maintaining a spell with a Duration of Concentration, or casting a spell that hasn’t been completed yet, he must pass a willpower or Spirit test." - Core, p. 185.
"Should a character suffer a successful interaction or damaging atack while maintaining a miracle with a Duration of Concentration, or invoking a power that isn’t yet completed, he must pass a willpower or Spirit test." - Core, p. 197.
"If a psionicist suffers a successful interaction or damaging atack while maintaining a power with a Duration of Concentration, or preparing a power that hasn’t been activated yet, she must pass a willpower or Spirit test." - Core, p. 205.
Case 3. I'm not having any spells on Concentration and using any Mind skills. I'm not rolling Concentration, because Concentration rule is applied only when you have spells on Concentration.
What's the case I missed?



I think you are confusing some English grammar here, on your Case 2.

The rules as written are:

TECR p. 185 wrote:If a character suffers a successful interaction or damaging attack while maintaining a spell with a Duration of Concentration, or casting a spell that hasn’t been completed yet, he must pass a willpower or Spirit test. If this test is failed, the spell fails with all the normal consequences, and all spells maintained via Concentration end.


What this means is when you suffer a:
1. successful Interaction
or
2. damaging attack

while either of the following conditions are true:

1. You are concentrating on a spell
and/or
2. You are in the process of casting a spell, such as a long-cast-time Mend psi-power

then you must succeed at a concentration check or do both of:

1. Lose the casting of the spell
and
2. Lose all current concentration effects.

The way you are interpreting it would put my condition #2 (casting a spell) in to the concentration triggers section, where you suffer an attack or interaction. What the actual rules say is, failing a concentration test while casting a spell causes you to stop casting the spell. Casting a spell does not trigger a concentration check under any circumstances by RAW. Note the part in the rules quote that I italicized. It is saying that failing a conc check loses you the spell with normal failure penalties.

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Aenno
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Re: Questions about Concentration

Postby Aenno » Thu Aug 09, 2018 4:24 pm

Oh! That's very possible. I always believed that casting a spell when you're already maintaining one would summon Concentration check. In my defense I can only say it's perfectly valid Russian form. Little fancy, but valid.
Still, that's where misunderstanding is; and I do believe casting should do it. Just in case, rereading it when you pointed it makes me agree with you - it's not core rule, even as it should be in my opinion (maybe I misread it because it still looks so logical and right for me!) So my homerule should be rephrased to "any power skill or mind skill".

As far as I get it, my options just looks too harsh, right? Well. Only thing I can say here, it works on my table, and I had never seen Concentration check failed yet.
I argue fiercely, but I never believed disagreement should be capital offence.

I'm editing my posts often. English isn't my native language, and I'm doing a lot of mistakes; that, with thoughtful rereading, I often found and want to edit.

iceshard87
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Re: Questions about Concentration

Postby iceshard87 » Thu Aug 09, 2018 4:34 pm

Aenno wrote:As far as I get it, my options just looks too harsh, right? Well. Only thing I can say here, it works on my table, and I had never seen Concentration check failed yet.


Which is perfectly fair and reasonable. If it works for your table, and nobody minds, have at it. Again, I haven't actually PLAYED TorgE yet, so my side of this conversation is entirely interpreting RAW and performing a lot of paper math on how it would play out. I may well agree with you in a month or two. Or not, we'll see.

And no worries on the linguistic misunderstanding. I have recently starting learning another language myself and, uh... It's not easy. Lots of mistakes are being made.

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Aenno
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Re: Questions about Concentration

Postby Aenno » Thu Aug 09, 2018 6:20 pm

iceshard87 wrote:Again, I haven't actually PLAYED TorgE yet, so my side of this conversation is entirely interpreting RAW and performing a lot of paper math on how it would play out.

Just in case: do you include cards, card sharing and different possibility paces in your calculations? By my own experience, it would change results HARD. I mean, really hard.
I have a habit to do "test combats" with new characters - to let them catch a character for combat, and to let me check what do they can and what will this particular player do with his setup. And I believed I get a feeling by playing a test combat for every single player. Catchword is "single". When they united and started to use card options and hoarding possibilities, I learned I underrated their power a lot.
I argue fiercely, but I never believed disagreement should be capital offence.

I'm editing my posts often. English isn't my native language, and I'm doing a lot of mistakes; that, with thoughtful rereading, I often found and want to edit.


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