Psi and the Social Axiom

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PrinceEarwig
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Psi and the Social Axiom

Postby PrinceEarwig » Thu Aug 09, 2018 4:20 am

Just wanted some feedback on an idea before I go with it as house ruled in my home game.
This specifically relates to the Kinesis Psi powers and the information about those powers referenced in the Social axioms 23 through 25

Axiom 23 - Kinesis can move objects slowly, with the mass of those objects depending on the strength of the psi’s mind.
Axiom 24 - Kinesis can move objects about as fast as a speeding car.
Axiom 25 - Kinesis can accelerate small objects to supersonic speeds.

Now, the signature power of Kinesis is arguably "Telekinesis" which is available at Axiom 23 and conforms to the Axiom 23 description.
However what happens at the higher axioms? I can see the argument for their being "more powerful" versions of the Telekinesis power that are not yet published... but considering how expensive it is to get new powers forcing someone to buy another perk in order to get the benefit of their higher axiom value seems a little bit off.
You can already get bonus strength with a decent roll when using TK so what I am proposing is simply

All movement based Kinesis effects get a bonus of +1 per point the Social axiom exceeds their requirement, to a maximum of +4
This would affect Telekinesis, Telekinetic barrier and I am toying with the idea of Pyrokinesis also (heat is after all just "movement" of molecules)

With current axioms that is a potential +2 to TK and TK Barrier and a +4 to Pyrokinesis

Opinions?

Sunrunner
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Re: Psi and the Social Axiom

Postby Sunrunner » Thu Aug 09, 2018 8:18 am

Well my plan is to do what I have done for years. When new books drop that have new stuff that was previously unavailable I tend to let the players respend/rebuild their characters. As long as the character is thematically the same its all good. Most of the time you know what the characters theme and flavor was so its not hard to look at stuff and go yeah, if that had been around when the character was made / leveling up they totally would have gone for that.

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Wotan
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Re: Psi and the Social Axiom

Postby Wotan » Thu Aug 09, 2018 9:38 am

PrinceEarwig wrote:Just wanted some feedback on an idea before I go with it as house ruled in my home game.
This specifically relates to the Kinesis Psi powers and the information about those powers referenced in the Social axioms 23 through 25

Axiom 23 - Kinesis can move objects slowly, with the mass of those objects depending on the strength of the psi’s mind.
Axiom 24 - Kinesis can move objects about as fast as a speeding car.
Axiom 25 - Kinesis can accelerate small objects to supersonic speeds.

Now, the signature power of Kinesis is arguably "Telekinesis" which is available at Axiom 23 and conforms to the Axiom 23 description.
However what happens at the higher axioms? I can see the argument for their being "more powerful" versions of the Telekinesis power that are not yet published... but considering how expensive it is to get new powers forcing someone to buy another perk in order to get the benefit of their higher axiom value seems a little bit off.
You can already get bonus strength with a decent roll when using TK so what I am proposing is simply

All movement based Kinesis effects get a bonus of +1 per point the Social axiom exceeds their requirement, to a maximum of +4
This would affect Telekinesis, Telekinetic barrier and I am toying with the idea of Pyrokinesis also (heat is after all just "movement" of molecules)

With current axioms that is a potential +2 to TK and TK Barrier and a +4 to Pyrokinesis

Opinions?

Since you've asked for opinions, I'd opine that this seems a bit unbalanced in the favour of Kinesis.
I'm not saying that the general idea is bad but, if you apply this only to Kinesis, it seems a bit unfair on mages, non-LL miracle workers, & the other flavours of Psi.
Personally, if I was going to do something like this I'd want to come up with some quick & easy fudge that any power user could use 'til their cosm book is out.

It hasn't come up yet, but the way I intend to deal with this at my table is to allow power users to buy a second Perk which grants them multiple powers, & let them fill it with powers from the Core's lists, rounded out with some cosm appropriate homebrew. Either that or let them take the standard (Core) extra power purchase & then convert it to the canon Cosm lists as the books come out.
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iceshard87
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Re: Psi and the Social Axiom

Postby iceshard87 » Thu Aug 09, 2018 1:35 pm

Lets take a step back, and look at how other axioms work. Lets take Tech, using Core Earth (TA23) and the Cyberpapacy (TA26).

-Core Earther SK, named Shooty McPistol, wields a Glock 9mm (TA22).
-Shooty McPistol goes to a Cyperpapacy pure zone.
-Mr. McPistol shoots his Glock. It functions with all the stats of a TA22 pistol.
-Shooty puts his pistol down for some reason, and then gets side tracked and doesn't come back to it for a day or two. The glock has been Transformed to a comparable Cyberpapacy item (Likely a GodLight).
-Shooty takes his new GodLight, and shoots at a Host. He rolls a one, and disconnects because he is now a 1-Case (TA of the GodLight matches the cosm, but exceeds his personal axiom).

Using this example, we can see that taking an ability from a given cosm, with its listed axiom, it adheres to its original axiom (and therefor its original values) while wielded by a Storm Knight, and therefor doesn't take advantage of the fact that the cosm in which he is firing allows for superior technology to what he is actually using.

If we apply this same concept to your suggestion, you are effectively upgrading the SA23 psi powers to SA24 or 25 in PP or Tharkold. Not only should this cause the user (assuming Core Earth) to become a walking 1-Case even though he is using a power with a perfectly valid axiom for his home and current cosm, but you are also now causing his abilities to, essential, transform automatically.

Also, if this would work for higher SA cosms, what happens in lower SA cosms? He just can't use his powers at all, because the axiom of the world does not allow them? If the answer is yes, that is what happens, then our Storm Knight is no longer a Storm Knight, really, because he is wholly constrained by the local axiom. If the answer is no, then you are inconsistently applying the local cosms axiom to abilities.

It would, in light of all of these things, be my suggestion that you do not attempt to allow any power or item to become more powerful simply because it is in a higher axiom cosm than its source. If you want a TA 25 version of the Telekinesis power, create a new one and add it to the Awakened's psi list, at SA25. If an Awakened wants it, they can have it, but it will become a 1-case in PP or Core Earth. Anything else would be inconsistent with what makes Storm Knights Storm Knights: Bringing a little piece of their reality with them.

utsukushi
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Re: Psi and the Social Axiom

Postby utsukushi » Thu Aug 09, 2018 1:59 pm

iceshard87 wrote:Anything else would be inconsistent with what makes Storm Knights Storm Knights: Bringing a little piece of their reality with them.

They don't, though - and I don't mean to like, jump on this, it's just something I've seen Deanna have to clarify repeatedly over time. It was kind of a shorthand `useful model' way of thinking about them in oTorg, but it wasn't exactly accurate there either, and Eternity has moved further away from the idea. Storm Knights are more strongly connected to their Reality than ords, but they don't carry it with them. I picture it like the Silver Cords you get with Astral Projection (in certain mythologies, anyway.) But it is NOT, for example, like an old fashioned diving suit with the cord running up to an air supply and then a bubble of air around you. You're not bringing your atmosphere with you, you're just...connected.

Anyway, after that, I do think you're misunderstanding the OPs intent - or I am, which is equally possible, because I totally see how you read it the way you did, so maybe that is what he meant. But I think he meant if a character is from, say, Tharkold, their Kinesis should be more powerful because they have higher Axioms. If a Core Earth Psi goes into Tharkold, they're still using their own TK, which is based on Core Earth's axioms.

That said, as things stand, I have to very much agree with Wotan. There's no reason something like this would apply to Kinesis, specifically. If you want to do this, you'll need to take a broader look at everything. It's been mentioned tangentially in other threads that, for example, spears get better as Tech improves, but are still basically spears. So you'll need an automatic upgrade path for those running from the Living Land on up.

Should Blessings probably be stronger in the Living Land than they are in Core Earth? Quite possibly. There's a good argument for it, at least, on the meta level.

Nevermind a glock transforming into a GodMeeter - the CyberPapacy could just support a better glock, because they have better metallurgy, better chemistry, etc.

The Bullet Spell? Yeah, that should probably be somehow easier or more effective for Aylish mages than anybody else.

And of course, those are all just specific examples. Arguably, every single power or item in the game should work better some places than others, IF that is how you choose to look at it. And since it's the same argument for every single thing, if you do that for Kinesis, you'd have to do that for everything else.

I think that's probably why the developers didn't. We'd have needed like eighteen more books and people would be cross-referencing charts like, "OK, I'm from Core Earth and we are in the CyberPapacy, so I get a +2 on Miracles, my Tech will all get a +1 after two days, but my Psionics will be at -2... oh, wait, no, this is a Wednesday and I'm facing north, so... hold on, what house is Jupiter in this month?"

Just remember that the Axioms are maximums. Just like in real life, not everything is at our absolute peak potential. Some things work well enough, and we kind of stopped improving them after that. Or they reached a point of diminishing returns and we haven't made much progress in certain fields in a while. So Tharkold's higher Axiom isn't represented in all the Kinesis powers being stronger, it's represented in having access to more and better powers.

iceshard87
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Re: Psi and the Social Axiom

Postby iceshard87 » Thu Aug 09, 2018 2:20 pm

utsukushi wrote:
iceshard87 wrote:Anything else would be inconsistent with what makes Storm Knights Storm Knights: Bringing a little piece of their reality with them.

They don't, though - and I don't mean to like, jump on this, it's just something I've seen Deanna have to clarify repeatedly over time. It was kind of a shorthand `useful model' way of thinking about them in oTorg, but it wasn't exactly accurate there either, and Eternity has moved further away from the idea. Storm Knights are more strongly connected to their Reality than ords, but they don't carry it with them. I picture it like the Silver Cords you get with Astral Projection (in certain mythologies, anyway.) But it is NOT, for example, like an old fashioned diving suit with the cord running up to an air supply and then a bubble of air around you. You're not bringing your atmosphere with you, you're just...connected.


I was oversimplifying. But in a sense, we do bring our reality with us. Being connected to Aysle wouldn't let me use magic in the LL unless I was able, at least in a very small way, impose my own reality on top the LL. But it is different from 'bringing it with me' a-la talismans or hardpoints.


utsukushi wrote:Anyway, after that, I do think you're misunderstanding the OPs intent - or I am, which is equally possible, because I totally see how you read it the way you did, so maybe that is what he meant. But I think he meant if a character is from, say, Tharkold, their Kinesis should be more powerful because they have higher Axioms. If a Core Earth Psi goes into Tharkold, they're still using their own TK, which is based on Core Earth's axioms.


That is entirely possibly, I could see how it could be read that way as well. In which case, I still stand by what I said but most of it simply becomes off-topic. Specifically, I stand by the middle of my last paragraph.

iceshard87 wrote:If you want a TA 25 version of the Telekinesis power, create a new one and add it to the Awakened's psi list, at SA25. If an Awakened wants it, they can have it, but it will become a 1-case in PP or Core Earth.


I have no issue with Tharkold psis having stronger powers that CE psis, but that would mean requiring a higher axiom, and causing contradictions in places that don't meet the SA the new power was designed for.

Of course, this is all just my take on the matter. Ultimately, whatever works for your game is the right way to do it.

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Aenno
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Re: Psi and the Social Axiom

Postby Aenno » Thu Aug 09, 2018 2:28 pm

iceshard87 wrote:-Shooty puts his pistol down for some reason, and then gets side tracked and doesn't come back to it for a day or two. The glock has been Transformed to a comparable Cyberpapacy item (Likely a GodLight).

Why? Glock is perfectly fit into Cyberpapacy axioms.
I argue fiercely, but I never believed disagreement should be capital offence.

I'm editing my posts often. English isn't my native language, and I'm doing a lot of mistakes; that, with thoughtful rereading, I often found and want to edit.

iceshard87
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Re: Psi and the Social Axiom

Postby iceshard87 » Thu Aug 09, 2018 3:22 pm

Aenno wrote:
iceshard87 wrote:-Shooty puts his pistol down for some reason, and then gets side tracked and doesn't come back to it for a day or two. The glock has been Transformed to a comparable Cyberpapacy item (Likely a GodLight).

Why? Glock is perfectly fit into Cyberpapacy axioms.


The rules for Pure Zones say so.

TECR p. 177 wrote:Objects transform quickly, generally within 24 hours.

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Aenno
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Re: Psi and the Social Axiom

Postby Aenno » Thu Aug 09, 2018 3:59 pm

iceshard87 wrote:
Aenno wrote:
iceshard87 wrote:-Shooty puts his pistol down for some reason, and then gets side tracked and doesn't come back to it for a day or two. The glock has been Transformed to a comparable Cyberpapacy item (Likely a GodLight).

Why? Glock is perfectly fit into Cyberpapacy axioms.


The rules for Pure Zones say so.

TECR p. 177 wrote:Objects transform quickly, generally within 24 hours.

I was under impression it's about contradictory items only, so until it's within Axioms and don't violate some Law, it's ok. In Aysle CE Glock would turn into blunderbuss, but in PanPacifica it would stay Glock. Aircraft carrier would turn into drakkar in Aysle, but Ayslean drakkar would stay drakkar in CE (until it's not magical or made from sapient pearwood, things like this), and wouldn't turn into aircraft carrier. (For the beginning, it would be too easy to farm CVs this way.)
Even if it's not directly told (right?), it looks logical for me - transformation is an effect of Everlaw of One, eliminating contradictions. Why would energy be spent on fixing absolutely normal thing?
I argue fiercely, but I never believed disagreement should be capital offence.

I'm editing my posts often. English isn't my native language, and I'm doing a lot of mistakes; that, with thoughtful rereading, I often found and want to edit.

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Greymarch2000
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Re: Psi and the Social Axiom

Postby Greymarch2000 » Thu Aug 09, 2018 4:19 pm

Well the standard foliage of North America all/mostly transformed into jungle even though they aren't under any higher axiom level than LL trees.


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