Goon Numbers Too Low

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Arcesilaus
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Re: Goon Numbers Too Low

Postby Arcesilaus » Mon Aug 20, 2018 12:38 pm

To a certain extent, you just have to be comfortable with the players pooling resources to achieve some pretty crazy things in Torg.

Example: in my last session, I intentionally gave the players a DC that I thought they wouldn't even attempt (DC 26), so that they would go back and find the trinket that allowed them to bypass the obstacle. Instead, one player (with a skill value in the 8-9 range) said, "Sure. I'll try it." Keep in mind that DC 26 isn't even on the chart that ends at "Near Impossible." A possibility and 3 cards later ... boom. Obstacle bypassed.

Now, sure, they had to use resources to reach 26, but reach it they did. On the one hand, it's an adjustment for many GMs to run Torg, where things are often very much in the players' hands. On the other hand, you almost never have to worry about things being "too hard*." Between Possibilities, cards, playing for the Critical Moment, etc., If they care enough, the players will figure out a way through. So, I guess what I'm saying is, "Yeah, throw some lieutenants at them. Add 10 more goons. Go nuts. It'll be all right."



* Of course I realize that there are limits to this. I'm not gonna send a High Lord after my Alpha level PCs. But soon ... soon ...
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Greymarch2000
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Re: Goon Numbers Too Low

Postby Greymarch2000 » Mon Aug 20, 2018 12:39 pm

Someone else posted on these forums somewhere before that difficulties in TorgE aren't about whether the PCs will fail or succeed but rather how many resources they need to expend to succeed. I think that pretty well covers the core of the game.

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Re: Goon Numbers Too Low

Postby utsukushi » Mon Aug 20, 2018 12:40 pm

I have two quick thoughts. First is that honestly, mooks in Eternity exist mostly to make the PCs look cool. It's the action-movie thing - there's the army the heroes mow through, and then there's the real fight where they suddenly start getting hurt. Before, you know, turning it around because they find out the villains hurt their nephew and apparently that heals concussions*.

But my second thought is that the other point to the smaller battles is that it helps the PCs ramp up for the big one. It gives them the chance to earn Possibilities, and most importantly, to cycle through cards and set their hands up better.

If they're regularly just knocking the mooks down in the first round, they're not giving themselves the chance to do that, and they're probably having a harder time of it when they get to the big fights later on.

Like, if you spend a Possibility and wipe out the goons before they know you're there, OK. You're down one Possibility and the scene moves on. And I agree, on the face of it, that seems fine - efficient, even. But on the other hand, if it's that easy as it stands, that's a good time to put down a Cosm Card to make things a little harder. Now your whole team goes up... well, let's say it's just one Possibility each, but then a couple other people have to spend some to get through this new trouble. That's still a net gain of one or two Possibilities for the group, plus you've bought a couple rounds to play out some cards and look for Hero, Drama, Coup de Grace... get that Leadership/Master Plan combo dug up... that kind of thing.

If you get to The Insidious Wu Han having thrown down one roll on all of the four battles leading up to it, you have to face him with four fewer Possibilities and whatever cards you happened to draw. And this is suddenly a bad time to start playing Cosm cards to make things harder on yourselves.


*- Silverado, if anyone's curious. All I'm saying is, we'd have a lot more supervillain doctors if things worked like that.

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Arcesilaus
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Re: Goon Numbers Too Low

Postby Arcesilaus » Mon Aug 20, 2018 12:40 pm

Greymarch2000 wrote:Someone else posted on these forums somewhere before that difficulties in TorgE aren't about whether the PCs will fail or succeed but rather how many resources they need to expend to succeed. I think that pretty well covers the core of the game.

Word.
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Re: Goon Numbers Too Low

Postby Arcesilaus » Mon Aug 20, 2018 12:43 pm

utsukushi wrote:
*- Silverado, if anyone's curious. All I'm saying is, we'd have a lot more supervillain doctors if things worked like that.

[hijack]I think my favorite thing about you, utsukushi, is all the wonderful Silverado references.[/hijack]
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Re: Goon Numbers Too Low

Postby FrankG » Mon Aug 20, 2018 3:00 pm

utsukushi wrote:But my second thought is that the other point to the smaller battles is that it helps the PCs ramp up for the big one. It gives them the chance to earn Possibilities, and most importantly, to cycle through cards and set their hands up better.

If they're regularly just knocking the mooks down in the first round, they're not giving themselves the chance to do that, and they're probably having a harder time of it when they get to the big fights later on.


That's such a great point that needs to be communicated to players. I'm definitely going to let my players know... even though they are always making me angry that they are plowing through my obstacles with their PP and Card play.
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Atama
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Re: Goon Numbers Too Low

Postby Atama » Mon Aug 20, 2018 3:39 pm

In our last session our group of 4 PCs got ambushed by more than two dozen cops, including a couple snipers and a half dozen SWAT.

We ran away. That strategy worked just fine.
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Re: Goon Numbers Too Low

Postby Rendghast » Mon Aug 20, 2018 5:03 pm

Note: and i still debating purchasing the eternty books and this is not giving me warm fuzzies.

In classic, Living Lands was famous for its priests. I would allow cross faith miracles within reason, and retconed Increased Toughness to function the same way increased strength did. Assuming your average ophat has 5 in faith and jakatt has 3 adds in focus, then on an average dice roll that is a good success vs toughness 10, and your Ednios now have a toughness of 15. Add to that things like Feast, Battle bless, and Warrior Madness from the clerics sourcebook, YOu now have some VERY tanky Jakatt's! Heightened Dexterity will have the same effect on their dodge, meaning that your 16 skill player can hit 3 jakatt at most, WITHOUT vital blow.

That said, under the old rules a K/O was 6 and 4 wounds was a 15. If all they are is down (and the ophat is still up) then a one on many soothe ritual should get them back on their feet in very short order. (faith 17, diff 12, so he can get 3 of them back on their feet each turn. this is assuming that the gotak is not using something like Blessing Vow or Spirit Quest! Or, you know, BOTH!)

Even having a "High Priest" running around dropping Feast and Bless Battle on all Jattak once a month is going to result in +7 to +8 to all ednios on a dice roll of 11.

THis is of course using classic rules, and being horribly mean to your players. You do not have to go that far, but you have alot of options. Living lands has a spirit rating of 20 something, play that to the extreme.

But seriously, if you have a player rolling 16+ on the opening round of EVERY combat, you need to haul them aside and talk about fudging dice rolls.

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Greymarch2000
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Re: Goon Numbers Too Low

Postby Greymarch2000 » Mon Aug 20, 2018 5:28 pm

There is no Focus in this edition, and most of the math works very differently. It's kind of Apples to Oranges tbh.

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Atama
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Re: Goon Numbers Too Low

Postby Atama » Mon Aug 20, 2018 6:11 pm

Greymarch2000 wrote:There is no Focus in this edition, and most of the math works very differently. It's kind of Apples to Oranges tbh.

Exactly, you almost could cite D&D rules for comparison. :P
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