Regarding the Living Land Backer Archetypes

Sunrunner
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Re: Regarding the Living Land Backer Archetypes

Postby Sunrunner » Mon Sep 24, 2018 8:06 am

Honestly I would just go with Edinos that have racial perks such as death claws and chameleon skin etc that transform should be able to keep them but not buy new ones. Mainly as I see them as genetic adaptations, I guess they are going with they are powered/driven by the Living lands laws but meh, once they have grown the giant claws or the reinforced bone carapace etc I kinda feel like its there to stay. Now I would totally not allow a human with chosen of Lanala who was doing edinos perk stuff to keep them since they are obviously getting this stuff from Lanala. Just errata the change in, and it patchs the edinos archetypes and prevents future problems along the same lines. Or in all honesty I would just label the edinos perks as racial perks that dont care about what cosom the edinos calls home at all. I mean they are lizard men and Lizards have claws, and chameleon skin etc naturally as is.


Anyway, just my thoughts I know you guys are going in a different direction. Ohh and as an additional question are we ever going to see the base rules for the Living lands backer races that were introduced with the Stalenger and Sloth characters so people can make their own?

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mistervimes
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Re: Regarding the Living Land Backer Archetypes

Postby mistervimes » Mon Sep 24, 2018 8:54 am

Zackzenobi wrote:
mistervimes wrote:
  • The Ruins Seeker and Edeinos Eidolon do not have the Edeinos Racial abilities listed. Is this a typo or should the cosm be Core Earth?
  • The Apex Predator, Lost One and Sunwing Ace do not list the Natural Weapons racial ability. I assume this is a typo?
  • The Hunter of Lanala perk (Apex Predator) does not have a category. I assume the category is Edeinos?


As the Creator of the Ruins Seeker, I can assure you, it is a Living Land character. And yes it should have Edeinos Racial Abilities. That was an oversight. I humbly apologize for that.


No apologies necessary. I love that archetype!
"He was an unshaven collection of bad habits marinated in alcohol, morose, cynical and ridiculously soft-hearted. One of Nature's policemen; his soul burns to arrest the Creator for getting it wrong."" - (Terry Pratchett)

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TorgHacker
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Re: Regarding the Living Land Backer Archetypes

Postby TorgHacker » Mon Sep 24, 2018 1:25 pm

Okay, here's the scoop.

We're getting rid of our ruling about racial Perks getting lost automatically when a character transforms. We are instead going back to what actually is written, specifically that "If a skill or Perk isn't appropriate for the cosm they are replaced with an equivalent skill or Perk".

It's the GM's call if a skill or Perk isn't appropriate. I will be adding some guidance in the FAQ about it though.
Deanna Gilbert
Torg Eternity designer
Ulisses North America

Zackzenobi
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Re: Regarding the Living Land Backer Archetypes

Postby Zackzenobi » Mon Sep 24, 2018 2:00 pm

mistervimes wrote:
Zackzenobi wrote:
mistervimes wrote:
  • The Ruins Seeker and Edeinos Eidolon do not have the Edeinos Racial abilities listed. Is this a typo or should the cosm be Core Earth?
  • The Apex Predator, Lost One and Sunwing Ace do not list the Natural Weapons racial ability. I assume this is a typo?
  • The Hunter of Lanala perk (Apex Predator) does not have a category. I assume the category is Edeinos?


As the Creator of the Ruins Seeker, I can assure you, it is a Living Land character. And yes it should have Edeinos Racial Abilities. That was an oversight. I humbly apologize for that.


No apologies necessary. I love that archetype!


Thank you very much. That means a lot. My character is Dek Gunek. I always wanted to have an Edeinos as one of the main characters of the story. Obviously the concept changed with the introduction of the Lost Worlds. My idea was to expand the types of characters available in the Living Land. Before now we had Priests and Jungle Warriors for the most part.

I'm really glad someone else liked my idea.

ZorValachan
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Re: Regarding the Living Land Backer Archetypes

Postby ZorValachan » Mon Sep 24, 2018 2:19 pm

TorgHacker wrote:Okay, here's the scoop.

We're getting rid of our ruling about racial Perks getting lost automatically when a character transforms. We are instead going back to what actually is written, specifically that "If a skill or Perk isn't appropriate for the cosm they are replaced with an equivalent skill or Perk".

It's the GM's call if a skill or Perk isn't appropriate. I will be adding some guidance in the FAQ about it though.

That is awesome. It means each GM's cosmverse can be "official" in the way they determine if these perks are kept or not.

I think, and have stated before, there is a pressure for GMs, either self or by players to be official and this gives personal leeway. Kudos!
- Leamon Crafton Jr.
Infiniverse Exchange author:

The Paraverse: An entire alternate Cosmverse
http://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/237607/

The Knights of the Road: Archtypes designed as a Storm Knight group
http://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/228365/

utsukushi
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Re: Regarding the Living Land Backer Archetypes

Postby utsukushi » Mon Sep 24, 2018 2:43 pm

TorgHacker wrote:We're getting rid of our ruling about racial Perks getting lost automatically when a character transforms. We are instead going back to what actually is written, specifically that "If a skill or Perk isn't appropriate for the cosm they are replaced with an equivalent skill or Perk".

It's the GM's call if a skill or Perk isn't appropriate. I will be adding some guidance in the FAQ about it though.

I really like that. That blurry line between Racial Perks and Cosm Perks, even with a clear ruling, is weirdly confusing -- I can easily see how it could confuse people in either direction. So just taking your hands off the wheel and letting people assume whatever feels right to them sounds ideal!

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Wotan
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Re: Regarding the Living Land Backer Archetypes

Postby Wotan » Wed Sep 26, 2018 6:56 pm

Overall, these look like a nice set of characters :)

Kudos to whoever snuck an Arnie quote on to the Apex Predator's character sheet *grin*.
Then I properly clocked the archetype name, then I read the background, & it all became clear :idea: A nice little homage to one of my favourite action films of the late 80s. Well played! :lol:
Non-denominational "Devil's Advocate"

Wakshani
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Re: Regarding the Living Land Backer Archetypes

Postby Wakshani » Fri Sep 28, 2018 3:08 am

Oops. One more little booboo.

The Enthralling Ringleader is missing 2 points of attributes. (10, 6, 8, 8, 6) … I'm guessing he should have been Charisma 12?

(edit)

one MORE thing.

The Inspiring DJ is also shy an attribute point (8, 7, 8, 9, 7) … should he have a 10 Mind, perhaps? Or Dex 8?

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pkitty
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Re: Regarding the Living Land Backer Archetypes

Postby pkitty » Sun Sep 30, 2018 1:49 pm

I'd like to discuss the new Perks from this product, and what I think works and doesn't.

---------------------------------------------

Wrestler

Solid, no problems, no issues. As I've brought up in previous discussions, I would have approached this just a bit differently (another effect instead of removing the damage penalty), but it's definitely balanced and useful.

Jungle Blessed

Reminds me of GURPS' "bulletproof nudity" optional rules, which isn't a bad thing! Not sure if this is fair for edeinos who can have built-in Armor (while still "not wearing armor"), but it seems balanced overall, so whatevs.

The only problem here is that it doesn't explicitly say how often you get to contest being Restrained as a free action. I foresee rules lawyers insisting that on the turn after being grappled, they can try it an unlimited number of times until they break free! So I think this needs an explicit "once per turn" clause and will be house-ruling it that way if it doesn't get one.

Mechanic

A solid Perk, but it raises the huge question -- what are the normal rules for repairing stuff in Torg? Obviously it shouldn't require a Perk to repair stuff, so I assume that the idea behind Mechanic is to let you do it much more quickly. But more quickly than what? The core rules don't even address repairing anything other than (1) vehicles and (2) clearing Malfunctions.

(Maybe this issue needs its own thread.)

Scavenger

My absolute favorite Perk from this supplement. The cost of discarding a Cosm card is a brilliant one that keeps this potent ability balanced, and I hope to see that mechanic used in future perks.

Stalker
Hunter of Lanala

These are both balanced and reasonable, and I admit that they provide somewhat different effects, but let's face it -- they are incredibly similar. I actually found it jarring reading Hunter of Lanala just a minute after reading Stalker. Does Torg really need both?

Hypnotic Voice

In theory, this is balanced against other, similar Perks. However, it is missing a sentence that I assume was simply an oversight; if not, it makes this the most powerful mind control ability in Torg and it is completely unbalanced.

"Once a victim successfully resists, she cannot be subject to any other mind control effect for the rest of the scene."

That seems to be standard boilerplate on these sorts of abilities, because without it you could just keep spamming even a boss fight every single turn.

Camouflage Chinoderm
Distortion Aura

Sure? These are too hard for me to judge as they're super specific to each race in question, but they look solid at a glance.

Heliopteryx

For what it's worth, I don't like this perk, as I think it takes the edeinos too far into the "environment-adapted subraces" trope which I find a bit silly. That said, it seems reasonably balanced compared to other similar abilities.

My one big balance issue is that IMO it should also not work if the subject is wearing Armor. (I'm adding this restriction as a house rule.) Or, at a minimum, it shouldn't work if the subject is wearing Armor with a Max Dex below 10, since that's a prereq for having this Perk at all. I can't accept the idea of a tiny-winged edeinos flying around in full plate.

Holy Reaper

Wow, this makes Double-Tap look overpowered. It's basically +1BD against gospog and a few Living Land plants. I guess the GM can make a conscious effort to use a lot of a vegetation against the party with this Perk, but that feels a bit forced.

Maybe this could be expanded a bit? Plant-based creatures and any sort of elemental or nature spirit? That fits the whole "druid" feel and would make this seem a bit more useful.

Bring the Beats

This seems really powerful and also a bit odd.

While I admit that "flip a Drama card" is less useful than the effect of Bolster or Not On My Watch, this perk (A) is a bit of both and (B) doesn't cost a Possibility to use 1-3 times per fight. As such, it doesn't seem balanced, even with the "must play music" requirement.

And it just feels odd, like it doesn't know if it's a Leadership, Reality, or Social Perk. Let's ignore the archetype himself for a moment. Pretend this isn't being taken by a DJ -- why does the Perk require you to play music? How does this music let you better manipulate reality?

I feel like there's a good Perk somewhere in here, but this needs a revision IMO.

---------------------------------------------

BTW, I've added these Perks to my wiki list (see link in sig), for anyone who finds it a useful index.
Our group's Torg Eternity wiki page
  • House rules, indexes of all perks/spells/etc, form-fillable character sheet, and more

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TorgHacker
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Re: Regarding the Living Land Backer Archetypes

Postby TorgHacker » Tue Oct 02, 2018 1:47 pm

pkitty wrote:I'd like to discuss the new Perks from this product, and what I think works and doesn't.


Jungle Blessed

Reminds me of GURPS' "bulletproof nudity" optional rules, which isn't a bad thing! Not sure if this is fair for edeinos who can have built-in Armor (while still "not wearing armor"), but it seems balanced overall, so whatevs.

The only problem here is that it doesn't explicitly say how often you get to contest being Restrained as a free action. I foresee rules lawyers insisting that on the turn after being grappled, they can try it an unlimited number of times until they break free! So I think this needs an explicit "once per turn" clause and will be house-ruling it that way if it doesn't get one.


It's once per turn. We might revise it by switching things around to get more space for the Perk. You'd be surprised how many things are because of layout problems.
Mechanic

A solid Perk, but it raises the huge question -- what are the normal rules for repairing stuff in Torg? Obviously it shouldn't require a Perk to repair stuff, so I assume that the idea behind Mechanic is to let you do it much more quickly. But more quickly than what? The core rules don't even address repairing anything other than (1) vehicles and (2) clearing Malfunctions.

(Maybe this issue needs its own thread.)


It depends. If it's not a big deal, no test is needed as long as someone reasonably has some skill (ie land vehicles). If it matters, a simple skill test. If it really matters, it's a DSR.

What the Perk really does is allow it to be done in _one minute_.

Stalker
Hunter of Lanala

These are both balanced and reasonable, and I admit that they provide somewhat different effects, but let's face it -- they are incredibly similar. I actually found it jarring reading Hunter of Lanala just a minute after reading Stalker. Does Torg really need both?


One's defensive, one's offensive. Also, one of the attractions for the backers was they got to make a new Perk. So, to answer your question, 'yes'.

Hypnotic Voice

In theory, this is balanced against other, similar Perks. However, it is missing a sentence that I assume was simply an oversight; if not, it makes this the most powerful mind control ability in Torg and it is completely unbalanced.

"Once a victim successfully resists, she cannot be subject to any other mind control effect for the rest of the scene."

That seems to be standard boilerplate on these sorts of abilities, because without it you could just keep spamming even a boss fight every single turn.


Also correct. (See layout issues)

Heliopteryx

For what it's worth, I don't like this perk, as I think it takes the edeinos too far into the "environment-adapted subraces" trope which I find a bit silly. That said, it seems reasonably balanced compared to other similar abilities.

My one big balance issue is that IMO it should also not work if the subject is wearing Armor. (I'm adding this restriction as a house rule.) Or, at a minimum, it shouldn't work if the subject is wearing Armor with a Max Dex below 10, since that's a prereq for having this Perk at all. I can't accept the idea of a tiny-winged edeinos flying around in full plate.


That's okay, because they can't.

"Heliopteryx use their arms to glide and even fly so
long as they aren’t carrying anything with a Minimum
Strength requirement."

That includes armor.

Holy Reaper

Wow, this makes Double-Tap look overpowered. It's basically +1BD against gospog and a few Living Land plants. I guess the GM can make a conscious effort to use a lot of a vegetation against the party with this Perk, but that feels a bit forced.

Maybe this could be expanded a bit? Plant-based creatures and any sort of elemental or nature spirit? That fits the whole "druid" feel and would make this seem a bit more useful.


Gospog are not uncommon creatures. It's not just 1st planting we're talking about. We're talking any of them.

Bring the Beats

This seems really powerful and also a bit odd.

While I admit that "flip a Drama card" is less useful than the effect of Bolster or Not On My Watch, this perk (A) is a bit of both and (B) doesn't cost a Possibility to use 1-3 times per fight. As such, it doesn't seem balanced, even with the "must play music" requirement.

And it just feels odd, like it doesn't know if it's a Leadership, Reality, or Social Perk. Let's ignore the archetype himself for a moment. Pretend this isn't being taken by a DJ -- why does the Perk require you to play music? How does this music let you better manipulate reality?

I feel like there's a good Perk somewhere in here, but this needs a revision IMO.


If, by the time these hit actual print, we find that it's too powerful, we'll revise. There's no guarantee that the character will be able to use this Perk each encounter, and the GM is well within their rights to make things more difficult if it's more difficult to play music.

As for the 'ignore the archetype' that's the wrong way to look at this. This Perk specifically exists BECAUSE of the archetype. Perks are what allows us to add rules to support particular archetypes.

Something to keep in mind here, is that in all these cases, the origin of the Perk was the creator of the archetype.
Deanna Gilbert
Torg Eternity designer
Ulisses North America


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