Nile Empire Sourcebook Questions

Savioronedge
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Re: Nile Empire Sourcebook Questions

Postby Savioronedge » Thu Apr 11, 2019 11:06 am

TorgHacker wrote:Good point. The only problem is that other than the FAQ we don't really define "non-combat" spells. I'm not sure I want to add it to the FAQ though, as it's getting pretty big already. Depends on how F the Q is.

And how any PC option effects end up being "rituals" or <long cast times>; players already complain about "useless" options because choices are so limited. How many PCs are really going to take a 1 hour cast time miracle as 1 of their 2 choices when so many immediate use options are available?

Note: this statement is a support for "Do we really need to do anything about this?" and not a complaint about anything...none of the above is meant in a negative light.

Staffan
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Re: Nile Empire Sourcebook Questions

Postby Staffan » Thu Apr 11, 2019 2:17 pm

vaminion wrote:I'm not sure that's a definition that should be used anyway. Nearly any power can be defined as either combat or non-combat depending on the needs of the person having the conversation.

Sure, but as I understand it the FAQ entry is mostly meant to cover the transition between the two. Using telekinesis to grab keys off a table on the other side of the bars of your cell: totally valid non-combat use. Using telekinesis to hit someone with a hammer? totally valid combat use. Walking around with telekinesis running in case said someone needs to be hit with a hammer? Nope.

That said, looking through the list of spells etc. in the core book, there aren't all that many that both have obvious non-combat and in-combat uses. Those buffs tend to be the three-round type (e.g. enhance or bless).

Also, when looking over this, I note that mage light is Concentration, which means that once combat starts, the light goes out. That's gotta be annoying. Though looking closer at the spell, it doesn't seem to be mobile, so maybe it's not that good for exploration after all. Perhaps that could be the role of one of the cantrips in the Aysle book.

vaminion
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Re: Nile Empire Sourcebook Questions

Postby vaminion » Thu Apr 11, 2019 3:21 pm

I guess that's a question, too. Does the faq mean "If it is concentration and the casting time is 1 action" or "If it is concentration or the casting time is 1 action"? That changes things pretty significantly.

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TorgHacker
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Re: Nile Empire Sourcebook Questions

Postby TorgHacker » Thu Apr 11, 2019 3:22 pm

vaminion wrote:I guess that's a question, too. Does the faq mean "If it is concentration and the casting time is 1 action" or "If it is concentration or the casting time is 1 action"? That changes things pretty significantly.


Can you quote the exact text in the FAQ you're asking about?
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vaminion
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Re: Nile Empire Sourcebook Questions

Postby vaminion » Thu Apr 11, 2019 3:31 pm

TorgHacker wrote:
vaminion wrote:I guess that's a question, too. Does the faq mean "If it is concentration and the casting time is 1 action" or "If it is concentration or the casting time is 1 action"? That changes things pretty significantly.


Can you quote the exact text in the FAQ you're asking about?


FAQ wrote:Q: Can you cast a bunch of Concentration spells/miracles/psionic powers before the start of a combat?

A: Usually, no. Concentration spells/miracles/psionic powers are combat spells (as are all spells, etc that have a Casting Time of 1 Action), and the intent is for these not to be pre-cast. If you get surprise, that's your 'pre-cast'. If you need an in-game rationalization for this, there's something about the start of battle (adrenaline rush or whatever) that always breaks concentration, even if merely briefly. Magic/miracles/psionic powers are "just weird that way".

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TorgHacker
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Re: Nile Empire Sourcebook Questions

Postby TorgHacker » Thu Apr 11, 2019 4:09 pm

It's "and" but not necessarily 100% so. There can be 1 Round casting times (I'm not sure that we currently have any though) that would be combat oriented.

There are certainly some 1 Minute Concentration spells, but they're all things like Gain Language I think.
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vaminion
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Re: Nile Empire Sourcebook Questions

Postby vaminion » Thu Apr 11, 2019 7:13 pm

TorgHacker wrote:It's "and" but not necessarily 100% so. There can be 1 Round casting times (I'm not sure that we currently have any though) that would be combat oriented.

There are certainly some 1 Minute Concentration spells, but they're all things like Gain Language I think.


So just for example's sake.

Gain Language and Pathfinder take 1 minute to cast and have a duration of concentration. They do not break when combat begins.

Telepathy and Fly take 1 action to cast and require concentration. They break when combat begins.

Disguise takes 1 action to cast and has a duration of 10 minutes. It does not break when combat begins.

Copycat, Haste, Energize, and Enhance have a casting time of 1 action and a duration of 3 rounds. They do not break when combat begins.

Savioronedge
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Re: Nile Empire Sourcebook Questions

Postby Savioronedge » Thu Apr 11, 2019 7:41 pm

vaminion wrote:...
Copycat, Haste, Energize, and Enhance have a casting time of 1 action and a duration of 3 rounds. They do not break when combat begins.

But if the story is built around not having them in effect, 30 seconds is not a hard thing to have expire between casting and combat... which I believe is the cause of the distinction.

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Re: Nile Empire Sourcebook Questions

Postby vaminion » Thu Apr 11, 2019 10:20 pm

Savioronedge wrote:But if the story is built around not having them in effect, 30 seconds is not a hard thing to have expire between casting and combat... which I believe is the cause of the distinction.


But then I can just recast it. Or to be more straightforward about it you'll run into situations along the lines of "A cyberpapal hovercraft is heading straight for you. They know you're there, you know they'll be here in under a minute. You have time to react. What do you do?". Initiative hasn't been dealt yet, but it's more than plausible the enemy will arrive while the buffs are still up.

Savioronedge
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Re: Nile Empire Sourcebook Questions

Postby Savioronedge » Fri Apr 12, 2019 12:39 am

vaminion wrote:
Savioronedge wrote:But if the story is built around not having them in effect, 30 seconds is not a hard thing to have expire between casting and combat... which I believe is the cause of the distinction.


But then I can just recast it. Or to be more straightforward about it you'll run into situations along the lines of "A cyberpapal hovercraft is heading straight for you. They know you're there, you know they'll be here in under a minute. You have time to react. What do you do?". Initiative hasn't been dealt yet, but it's more than plausible the enemy will arrive while the buffs are still up.

For how long? Are they still up for 1 round? 2? Or should you have prepared to actually cast them in the Surprise round? For the Concentration spells, in the unregulated hand-wavey time before combat starts there is so much that could break concentration, it is better to just cast in the Surprise round. In a Wizards duel (not Ayslish, as that book will give more information) the Duelists can start into rounds.with a specified time for prep, say 30 seconds, for buffs/defensive spells before offensives start flinging.

This comes down to one of the basic design-directives in Eternity...it's a lot easier for a GM to say the characters can do something this time because than to have to say the characters can't do it when the rules allow.

Please understand, I loved the math of old TORG. I am all for books of charts of tables of footnotes that spell out every nuance of every possible action in every conceivable situation...but that is not TORG: Eternity. This game doesn't work that way. And even I don't want it too, even if I do get nostalgic for Old TORG from time to time.


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