Electric katana/longbow questions

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Greymarch2000
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Re: Electric katana/longbow questions

Postby Greymarch2000 » Fri Jan 04, 2019 11:54 am

If you can't use an AK as a club while disconnected shouldn't all of your higher tech kevel clothing blow off your body as soon as you dc as well? :D

Staffan
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Re: Electric katana/longbow questions

Postby Staffan » Fri Jan 04, 2019 12:01 pm

Sword of Spirit wrote:Isn't there a place in the rulebook that gives an example of a disconnected rifle (assault rifle I think) in the Living Land just being a club? Or am I misremembering and that was referring to a transformed rifle?

There is a bit about that in the Melee Weapons section, but the actual rules for disconnection say that contradictory tools start phasing in and out so that's what I'd go with.

Technically, the bit about the assault rifle often becoming little more than a club in LL doesn't say anything about contradiction, so it could refer to your ammo being eaten by the Law of Decay.

fougerec
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Re: Electric katana/longbow questions

Postby fougerec » Fri Jan 04, 2019 12:18 pm

Greymarch2000 wrote:If you can't use an AK as a club while disconnected shouldn't all of your higher tech kevel clothing blow off your body as soon as you dc as well? :D


Yes but one of those results in me needing to actually track the phase of an item at the time it's being used as a club because yes my players will absolutely try that and the other results in near but not total nakedness (different items phase in and out at different intervals to keep modesty and a PG-13ish rating).

Basically some groups will try to game the system so they don't need to spend even a single action grabbing a different weapon or picking up a branch or whatever.

Armor though absolutely stops working.

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TorgHacker
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Re: Electric katana/longbow questions

Postby TorgHacker » Fri Jan 04, 2019 12:20 pm

Sword of Spirit wrote:Isn't there a place in the rulebook that gives an example of a disconnected rifle (assault rifle I think) in the Living Land just being a club? Or am I misremembering and that was referring to a transformed rifle?


This part, under Melee Weapons on page 148:

"Wise Storm Knights learn to use the most simple
weapons. While an assault rifle might be the best
tool against the thugs of the Cyberpope, it often
becomes little more than a club in the low-tech
jungles of the Living Land. That’s when a little
training with a club or spear goes a long way."

Anyway, I think it's probably at a point it needs to be in the FAQ one way or the other. I'll conflab with Darrell.
Deanna Gilbert
Torg Eternity designer
Ulisses North America

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Atama
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Re: Electric katana/longbow questions

Postby Atama » Fri Jan 04, 2019 2:16 pm

Staffan wrote:
Sword of Spirit wrote:Isn't there a place in the rulebook that gives an example of a disconnected rifle (assault rifle I think) in the Living Land just being a club? Or am I misremembering and that was referring to a transformed rifle?

There is a bit about that in the Melee Weapons section, but the actual rules for disconnection say that contradictory tools start phasing in and out so that's what I'd go with.

Technically, the bit about the assault rifle often becoming little more than a club in LL doesn't say anything about contradiction, so it could refer to your ammo being eaten by the Law of Decay.

Even if the ammo isn’t “eaten”, if you simply run out of ammo you’re unlikely to find a way to replenish it so either way it’s no better than an awkward club.
“You are a bad person, and should feel bad.”
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utsukushi
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Re: Electric katana/longbow questions

Postby utsukushi » Fri Jan 04, 2019 2:48 pm

I guess with the Electric Katana specifically, being able to function at a lower Tech Level seems like the only advantage to using it that way, so if it doesn't work like that, why is that line taking up precious space in the rulebook? Otherwise you're giving up 2 AP and a point of damage to, what, not glow? Given that the glowing has no game impact whatsoever, while I can, sure, create convoluted circumstances where that would be helpful, they're not just rare, but forced.

Also, just grammatically, it says it "May be used as a normal katana when not energized." Not just `similar to'.

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Re: Electric katana/longbow questions

Postby Atama » Fri Jan 04, 2019 3:02 pm

A truncheon from Core Earth does not function in any way different from a mace from Aysle. Same damage, and neither has any drawbacks or weaknesses. Yet the truncheon costs over twice as much and is Tech 22 compared to Tech 8. Clearly, what matters is how the device is made and what it’s made out if, now how “complex” it is. An electric katana doesn’t change its Tech level just because it’s turned off. It is still a highly-advanced piece of technology no matter how you’re using it.

As far as what is the point of mentioning its use when unpowered, what if you are fighting a guy who sets off an EMP or has some weird science gizmo that temporarily renders electronic devices inert? It would be handy to know how your sword could be used then.
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Re: Electric katana/longbow questions

Postby TorgHacker » Fri Jan 04, 2019 4:00 pm

Okay, so here's the scoop. The Tech Axiom of the item is the Tech Axiom of the item. Doesn't matter what it's used for. So the Electric Katana acting as a normal katana is for in-universe reasons like say...if it's dark, or you're trying to be quiet, etc. Bashing someone over the head with an AK-47 is still bashing them over the head with a contradictory item.

As a side point, if you're using the AK-47 as a club, you can use your melee weapons defense. But you have to actually be fighting hand-to-hand and not shooting with it.

If you're disconnected in say, the Living Land, your contradictory stuff is phasing, end of story. So you can't use it. Technically you can't even use someone else's AK-47 as a club either.
Deanna Gilbert
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ShirtlessOBrien
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Re: Electric katana/longbow questions

Postby ShirtlessOBrien » Fri Jan 04, 2019 7:45 pm

A further question occurs to me: Suppose Redshirt Ross the Ord from Core Earth is walking through the Living Land but hasn't been disconnected yet. He is carrying an M-4. He disconnects and as per the rules suddenly he is flashing in between being fully clothed in modern textiles and barbaric nudity, his M-4 is useless and so on. An edeinos takes this opportunity to jump out and kill him. What happens to his stuff? Do we have a dead Ord in modern clothes who has just dropped an M-4, or because dead people can't reconnect does his stuff turn into Living Land stuff or vanish or what?

Also I'm just putting it out there, and I know that I'm a bit of a stickler for this stuff compared to Deanna, but the canonical adventures just aren't on the same page as the core rules here. Spoilers ahead, obviously, because I have to talk about adventure content.

For example, Day One page 15 (Living Land adventure) says about an Ord who has just transformed or disconnected:

Inside, Fin squints at the ruined engines like he’s trying to remember something from long ago. Once the door opens he waves a heavy wrench threateningly at anyone who approaches him.


Now either this guy is transformed, in which case he ought to be wearing a leaf loincloth instead of clothes and be waving a stick, not a wrench. Or he has disconnected in which case his clothes and wrench should be flickering in and out of reality leaving him effectively bare-arse nude and unarmed. There just isn't an in-between state in the RAW as far as I can tell where people are clothed, carrying wrenches and confused by technology.

Shortly afterwards the module says of some Coast Guard officers:

The crew were visibly armed with M4 rifles. Some tried to fire on the mosasaur when it attacked, but
the rifles didn’t seem to work for them.


Same issue, either they were connected and the rifles worked fine, they were transformed and the rifle was a stick, or they were disconnected and their guns and clothes were flickering in and out of reality.

Similarly the same module on page 23 says of a group of explicitly disconnected police officers:

Leslie and her cohorts all wear blue armbands made of the strips of cloth from police uniforms.


Well no they don't, because they are disconnected and those textiles and dyes don't exist in the Living Land. I won't keep quoting but later there are also tribespeople wearing tattered hospital clothing which is a no-no.

Clearly Day One Living Land thinks that when you disconnect your stuff stops working and you get confused, but there's none of this flickering in and out of reality business. Under that view you could absolutely disconnect and still club someone with the butt of a rifle or a de-powered electric katana.

I have to say that I like the approach that module takes a lot, and if there's any way to salvage that approach without causing major headaches I would be inclined to take it for home game purposes. One option might be to just say that Storm Knights are special and their stuff goes all flickery and spooky when they disconnect, but everyone else's gear is unaffected by disconnecting except that they can't make it work to actively break cosm laws.

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Gargoyle
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Re: Electric katana/longbow questions

Postby Gargoyle » Fri Jan 04, 2019 8:15 pm

IIRC, the overarching philosophies about the reality rules that have been said before on this forum are:

1) There doesn''t have to be a model of physics to govern reality. The rules ton't have to be completely consistent. Reality is just weird sometimes.
2) The reason for #1 is that it makes it more intuitive. If you think too hard about it, you come up with all sorts of holes. By going with the flow and just handling it however it makes sense in the moment, you're better off.

I don't have references for that and I'm too lazy to look it up, and it's totally paraphrased, but I really dig these ideas and that's how I run it.

Pretty sure in oTorg fiction when someone disconnected the gun would just go click and you had soldiers desperately rifle-butting dinos. That makes sense to me. It doesn't have to be the same as armor in TorgE where it goes out of phase like Schrodinger's cat. That makes sense for passive equipment because of the function of the gear. You could say the Everlaw is removing the function in the easiest way possible. If you disconnect with a gun at my table you can still club someone with it, not because of some rule that the Everlaw does this or that, but because it's intuitive and dramatically it's awesome, and that's close enough to the rules for me.

Also I feel like the function of the gear is the thing, not how it was manufactured. Building a baseball bat of Tech 24 materials doesn't make it Tech 24 IMO unless it electrifies it or something. It's still just a bat with whatever the low tech level that is. If you have an electric katana, or a regular katana for that matter, and disconnect with it in the LL, it too becomes a club in my mind. It doesn't have an edge anymore; it doesn't have to transform for that, I just think that's the easiest, cheapest way for the Everlaw of One to change it to conform. And it changes back when you reconnnect.

It's weird, there are plenty of corner cases, and tons of inconsistencies and I don't mind. It's a game where you can play a cybernetic witch next to a middle school art teacher, so I'm ok with stuff like this. There is too much awesome for this stuff to bother me. :) I get that I might be weird and that some people do want something more consistent.
"That old chestnut?"

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