Electronic Locks

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TorgHacker
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Re: Electronic Locks

Postby TorgHacker » Tue Apr 02, 2019 3:28 pm

Atama wrote:
TorgHacker wrote:
utsukushi wrote:Although I do assume you need an Electronic Lockpick to attempt an electronic lock - the Aylish thief with her traditional lock picks doesn't have the tools "relevant to the particular type of security system." Which is probably not a big deal most of the time, but I suppose it means if she's trying to pick, say, a keypad lock in Core Earth, that'll be a 4-case Contradiction.


Yup.

Why a 4 case? Is it because the keypad lock is above the thief’s Tech axiom, and magical lockpicks are above Core Earth’s Magic axiom? I’m trying to figure out how this contradicts enough for a 4 case and not just a 1 case.


Wait, you're right. Sorry, brain fart.
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Re: Electronic Locks

Postby utsukushi » Tue Apr 02, 2019 7:31 pm

Atama wrote:Why a 4 case? Is it because the keypad lock is above the thief’s Tech axiom, and magical lockpicks are above Core Earth’s Magic axiom? I’m trying to figure out how this contradicts enough for a 4 case and not just a 1 case.

Well, in my example, it's because I didn't say anything about magical lockpicks? Electronic Lockpicks are Tech 24 - that would be above both our hypothetical Aylish character (14), and Core Earth (23), so 4-case.

An Aylish thief using Electronic Lockpicks in Pan-Pacifica, Tharkold, or CyberPapacy only has a 1-case Contradiction because it's a contradiction for her, but not the realm. Everywhere else (and regular locks in Core Earth) she can probably handle with her regular lockpicks, which only become a 1-case again in Living Land. But so are locks, so that's probably not a problem most of the time. I could imagine the Nile Empire having some Weird Science locks that would require Electronic Lockpicks, and it would be a 4-case there, too, but that seems... rare.

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Re: Electronic Locks

Postby Spatula » Tue Apr 02, 2019 7:45 pm

The electronics lockpick doesn't have any kind of description IIRC but my assumption is that it's not necessary to hack a security panel, it just lets you do it without having to break open the panel.

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Re: Electronic Locks

Postby Atama » Tue Apr 02, 2019 10:39 pm

utsukushi wrote:
Atama wrote:Why a 4 case? Is it because the keypad lock is above the thief’s Tech axiom, and magical lockpicks are above Core Earth’s Magic axiom? I’m trying to figure out how this contradicts enough for a 4 case and not just a 1 case.

Well, in my example, it's because I didn't say anything about magical lockpicks? Electronic Lockpicks are Tech 24 - that would be above both our hypothetical Aylish character (14), and Core Earth (23), so 4-case.

An Aylish thief using Electronic Lockpicks in Pan-Pacifica, Tharkold, or CyberPapacy only has a 1-case Contradiction because it's a contradiction for her, but not the realm. Everywhere else (and regular locks in Core Earth) she can probably handle with her regular lockpicks, which only become a 1-case again in Living Land. But so are locks, so that's probably not a problem most of the time. I could imagine the Nile Empire having some Weird Science locks that would require Electronic Lockpicks, and it would be a 4-case there, too, but that seems... rare.

I didn’t realize that they were not of Core Earth. Why would someone from Aysle be using that? Surely you don’t need non-CE tech to hack CE tech. :?:
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Re: Electronic Locks

Postby utsukushi » Tue Apr 02, 2019 11:17 pm

Well, because Greymarch's question was,
Also, this may be opening Pandora's Box but what are peoples opinions on using a skill like lockpicking to open locks that are far beyond ones axiom? Like an Aylish thief "picking" a Cyberpapal retina scanner?


And it was affirmed that indeed, Lockpicking is Lockpicking so she can.

But I said,
Although I do assume you need an Electronic Lockpick to attempt an electronic lock - the Aylish thief with her traditional lock picks doesn't have the tools "relevant to the particular type of security system."


So if the person on your team with Lockpicking happens to be an Aylish Thief and you need to hack a keypad in Core Earth, she can do it, but it would be a 4-case Contradiction. (With, as was also noted, probably a -2 Familiarization Penalty the first couple times)

And apart from, "That's just what the rules say," I do think it makes sense with the way measure-and-countermeasure cycles intrinsically work. We have security features now that we don't have the technology to break, but when technology gets just a little bit better, tools that let people more easily break those become possible. A little later than that and those start to become obsolete -- like, Electronic Lockpicks work wonderfully in PP and Tharkold, but by the time you get to the Cyberpapacy, while they still help with a lot of things, a lot of other security features now require a Cyberdeck and the Computer skill, because Lockpicking is no longer the way to open that door. It's now part of a much bigger system. (And this is when our Thief points out that she also learned the Open Locks spell a couple Acts ago because, dude. Aysle.)

But, um... honestly, I'm not sure it was worth all this. I was just saying I don't think you can open a retinal scanner or number pad with twisty sticks. That's all. I'm a little more torn on whether an Electronic Lockpick set can handle a lock in Aysle. At $400, it sort of feels like it should be backwards compatible, but it doesn't really make sense, so they probably have to suck it up and spring for the extra $10.

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Re: Electronic Locks

Postby Kuildeous » Wed Apr 03, 2019 11:57 am

utsukushi wrote: I'm a little more torn on whether an Electronic Lockpick set can handle a lock in Aysle. At $400, it sort of feels like it should be backwards compatible, but it doesn't really make sense, so they probably have to suck it up and spring for the extra $10.


Probably not canon, but I can envision an all-in-one device that has the fancy computer components and then these little sheathes—similar to a stylus for PDAs or some tablets—that contain titanium lockpicks.

At least I could see justification in combining or upgrading the lockpicks.
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Re: Electronic Locks

Postby GeniusCodeMonkey » Wed Apr 03, 2019 5:08 pm

We have a house rule that electronic and magical locks use Mind and Spirital locks using Spirit instead of Dexterity.

We also have a -2 if higher axiom than your own, plus the -2 for any familiarity penalty. The familiarity penalty will disappear over time, but the axiom penalty won't.

So an Aylish thief could pick a cyberpapacy retina scanner but it would be at -4 the first few times. This makes a Standard electronic lock Hard for the thief, going to only Challenging after a few successful goes.

The thief still needs tools to pick it though.
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Re: Electronic Locks

Postby utsukushi » Thu Apr 04, 2019 12:50 am

I had to think about that a little, but I like that idea. In oTorg it was kind of accepted that everyone acclimated to multiple realities after a while, but in Eternity it's much more deeply encoded that you're part of your own reality forever. It's always hard for a CyberPapal character to embrace advanced culture, or for a Living Land character to comprehend technology, because the very concepts are contradictory.

...It probably suggests a Reality Perk (possibly one akin to the way they did the one to unlock a Perk category - eg., available to Core Earthers early, but anybody at a higher Clearance) to avoid that. Clearing up a -2 penalty is right in line with a good power level for a Perk. I think I'd call it "Jack of All Worlds."

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Re: Electronic Locks

Postby mica » Thu Apr 04, 2019 4:54 am

I would argue that the skill is not just about looking at the specific locking mechanism but the entire spectrum of how a door remains closed. A skilled lock picker may simply look at a vault with all its hi-tech combobulations, move to the other side and tackle the hinges. You can overthink and over-complicate things. This is a game.

'Nogri the dwarf stands and stares at the cyberlock. He paces back and forth running his hands over the wall then grins. Replacing his set of tools carefully in his backpack he then hefts his warhammer and attacks the wall quickly exposing a huge steel bar. He then places an iron wedge into the gap behind the bar and hammers it in. There is a huge crack and the door swings open.'

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Re: Electronic Locks

Postby ryric » Thu Apr 04, 2019 9:32 am

I don't find it hard, with a little imagination, to resolve issues like having a Aysle thief pick an electronic lock. Remember that our heroes, being Reality-rated, bend things to their will a little bit. I could easily see the innately-magical Aysle character using latent divination to correctly guess a keypad code, for example, even if they had no actual divination ranks. For them, "background" levels of apportation and divination are just part of how you sneak into places. You can make a similar excuse for a Pan-Pacifica ninja trying to pick an arcane-sealed door in Aysle; in this case, I could see the ninja's "anti-magic" nature unraveling the magical seal because in their reality this stuff is all simple tricks and nonsense.


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