multiple attack actions with multi target

Sir Awesome
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multiple attack actions with multi target

Postby Sir Awesome » Mon Apr 01, 2019 4:56 pm

I am currently playing a stress testing combat monster in my weekend Torg game (as I am a co gm who wanted to see how bad it could get and I am also playing with a bunch of power gamers) - ok you caught me I am a power gamer as well ;)

Here is the situation.

I am currently dual wielding electric katanas and engaged with 3 lizards in melee with 3 more charging at me down range.

I decide that I want to be billy bad ass and kill all six in one round. I want to multi action/multi target attacking the 3 in melee with my katana then switch to my AK and gun down the other 3.

Here are my questions
1) is this possible as I would be using 2 different weapons that require 2 hands twice in one turn? Do I just get to use a simple action to drop the katanas and another simple action to draw my AK so that can do both? or are my hands occupied for the entire turn doing the melee attacks and I can't do the shooting attacks?
2) what are the penalties? I am currently assuming that it would be a -6 to both (-2 for multi action, and -4 for 3 targets of that action)

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Spatula
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Re: multiple attack actions with multi target

Postby Spatula » Mon Apr 01, 2019 5:34 pm

The penalties would affect everything, if such a round of actions were possible.

-2 for Multi-Action (two separate attacks using different skills)
-4 to chop at 3 lizards
-4 (or -6?) to shoot at 3 chargers
= -10 (or -12) to your bonus, which is then added to both melee weapons and fire combat.

Assuming that it's possible...

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Count Thalim
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Re: multiple attack actions with multi target

Postby Count Thalim » Mon Apr 01, 2019 5:36 pm

Looking at the rules you should be fine with step 1, pg 114 says you can do 1 or 2 simple actions a turn (GM Allowing) such as drawing a weapon.

Step 2 you are on more shaky ground as it depends on how you do your counting.
Looking at RAW on pgs 124 & 125 you cannot do the same skill twice with Multi-action, but as you are technically doing two different skills (Fire Combat & Melee) you cover that.
Multi-target doesn't cover the issue of changing weapons, but does have the same basic -2 per additional action.

The question is whether they stack or are nested. I.e is it 6 multi target actions with 2 different weapons so a -10 or 2 different actions with a 3 multi-target penalty so -6.

As a GM if my players tried to pull this one on me I would rule it is 6 multi targets so you are going to be hit by a -10 penalty, half worked out with your melee and half with your Fire Combat.
But then Rules lawyers have always had short shrift at our table, we are more a dramatic troupe, so that colours my approach.
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TorgHacker
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Re: multiple attack actions with multi target

Postby TorgHacker » Mon Apr 01, 2019 6:18 pm

Sir Awesome wrote:I am currently playing a stress testing combat monster in my weekend Torg game (as I am a co gm who wanted to see how bad it could get and I am also playing with a bunch of power gamers) - ok you caught me I am a power gamer as well ;)

Here is the situation.

I am currently dual wielding electric katanas and engaged with 3 lizards in melee with 3 more charging at me down range.

I decide that I want to be billy bad ass and kill all six in one round. I want to multi action/multi target attacking the 3 in melee with my katana then switch to my AK and gun down the other 3.

Here are my questions
1) is this possible as I would be using 2 different weapons that require 2 hands twice in one turn? Do I just get to use a simple action to drop the katanas and another simple action to draw my AK so that can do both? or are my hands occupied for the entire turn doing the melee attacks and I can't do the shooting attacks?
2) what are the penalties? I am currently assuming that it would be a -6 to both (-2 for multi action, and -4 for 3 targets of that action)


1. Yep, you've got it. Two simple actions.

2. It's -6 to both. But more on that later.
Deanna Gilbert
Torg Eternity designer
Ulisses North America

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TorgHacker
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Re: multiple attack actions with multi target

Postby TorgHacker » Mon Apr 01, 2019 6:31 pm

Count Thalim wrote:
Step 2 you are on more shaky ground as it depends on how you do your counting.
Looking at RAW on pgs 124 & 125 you cannot do the same skill twice with Multi-action, but as you are technically doing two different skills (Fire Combat & Melee) you cover that.
Multi-target doesn't cover the issue of changing weapons, but does have the same basic -2 per additional action.

The question is whether they stack or are nested. I.e is it 6 multi target actions with 2 different weapons so a -10 or 2 different actions with a 3 multi-target penalty so -6.

As a GM if my players tried to pull this one on me I would rule it is 6 multi targets so you are going to be hit by a -10 penalty, half worked out with your melee and half with your Fire Combat.
But then Rules lawyers have always had short shrift at our table, we are more a dramatic troupe, so that colours my approach.


Personally, I agree with you. Let's just say there was some disagreement between me and Darrell about that...and it's mostly because of an example, not necessarily a rule.

Though Darrell does agree that it's very quickly getting into abuse stage, and my main objection is how freaking long this could make resolving actions if the GM doesn't kibosh that themself.
Deanna Gilbert
Torg Eternity designer
Ulisses North America

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Spatula
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Re: multiple attack actions with multi target

Postby Spatula » Mon Apr 01, 2019 6:40 pm

TorgHacker wrote:2. It's -6 to both. But more on that later.

Huh, that surprises me. Seems like the player can evade the normal multi-target penalties once you hit 3+ targets by using two different attack skills.

3 targets, 1 skill: -4 to all three attacks
3 targets, 2 skills: -4 to two attacks, -2 to one attack
4 targets, 1 skill: -6 to all four attacks
4 targets, 2 skills: -4 to all four attacks
etc.

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TorgHacker
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Re: multiple attack actions with multi target

Postby TorgHacker » Mon Apr 01, 2019 6:42 pm

Spatula wrote:
TorgHacker wrote:2. It's -6 to both. But more on that later.

Huh, that surprises me. Seems like the player can evade the normal multi-target penalties once you hit 3+ targets by using two different attack skills.

3 targets, 1 skill: -4 to all three attacks
3 targets, 2 skills: -4 to two attacks, -2 to one attack
4 targets, 1 skill: -6 to all four attacks
4 targets, 2 skills: -4 to all four attacks
etc.


Yep. I know. I don't agree with it myself.
Deanna Gilbert
Torg Eternity designer
Ulisses North America

utsukushi
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Re: multiple attack actions with multi target

Postby utsukushi » Tue Apr 02, 2019 10:47 am

I don't like it, but reading closely, I have to agree that's RAW. Multi-Action says "Modifiers besides the Multi-Action penalty are applied to the relevant part of the test separately."

So... yeah. You take -2 for the Multi-Action. Then Melee Weapons takes an additional -4 for Multi-Targeting, making it -6. And then Fire Combat takes an additional -4 for Multi-Targeting, making it also -6.

If you made an All Out Attack, dropped your katana, pulled out your Kyogo T11 and fired in a Long Burst, you'd only be at -2. But you'd also be Very Vulnerable, if anyone happened to be left standing.

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TorgHacker
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Re: multiple attack actions with multi target

Postby TorgHacker » Tue Apr 02, 2019 12:46 pm

utsukushi wrote:I don't like it, but reading closely, I have to agree that's RAW. Multi-Action says "Modifiers besides the Multi-Action penalty are applied to the relevant part of the test separately."

So... yeah. You take -2 for the Multi-Action. Then Melee Weapons takes an additional -4 for Multi-Targeting, making it -6. And then Fire Combat takes an additional -4 for Multi-Targeting, making it also -6.

If you made an All Out Attack, dropped your katana, pulled out your Kyogo T11 and fired in a Long Burst, you'd only be at -2. But you'd also be Very Vulnerable, if anyone happened to be left standing.


Still don't like it. I'd never read it like that, and now the most efficient way for defeating 15 mooks is to punch, stab, and shoot 5 each rather than shoot 15 with a machine gun.

With different result numbers for each, different damage bonuses for each...uggghhhhhhhhhhhh....

Additionally, my argument was that the Multi-Targeting rules don't specify that you apply them by groups:

"Characters can attack multiple opponents at once
with physical or interaction attacks. Each additional
target incurs a –2 penalty to the test. Firing at three
targets, for example, subtracts 4 from the attack
total. If successful, all of the targets are hit and
suffer damage normally."

It makes a rule that was somewhat elegant, very inelegant, especially at higher power levels. But then, I have had uber power gamers in my games, who love to find any of these loop holes and laugh...
Deanna Gilbert
Torg Eternity designer
Ulisses North America

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Kuildeous
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Re: multiple attack actions with multi target

Postby Kuildeous » Tue Apr 02, 2019 1:58 pm

I have the same concerns, but I'll put on a devil's advocate hat for a moment. The shooting and punching someone for more effect means that you would be raising two skills to make it really effective, whereas the person who is simply shooting or punching everyone only needs to improve one skill.

It's not quite equivalent to the miracles vs. magic or psionics situation, but it is there. It's not much of an argument because it's usually good to have an ability to deal with ranged and melee (or ranged and battle magic skill).
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