multiple attack actions with multi target

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TorgHacker
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Re: multiple attack actions with multi target

Postby TorgHacker » Tue Apr 02, 2019 2:36 pm

Kuildeous wrote:I have the same concerns, but I'll put on a devil's advocate hat for a moment. The shooting and punching someone for more effect means that you would be raising two skills to make it really effective, whereas the person who is simply shooting or punching everyone only needs to improve one skill.

It's not quite equivalent to the miracles vs. magic or psionics situation, but it is there. It's not much of an argument because it's usually good to have an ability to deal with ranged and melee (or ranged and battle magic skill).


To be clear, the issue isn't so much the effectiveness...it's the fact that it's most effective to do the thing that takes the longest to actually resolve.
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Re: multiple attack actions with multi target

Postby Sir Awesome » Tue Apr 02, 2019 3:31 pm

@Torghacker

Do you feel the same when someone Taunts 3 targets to make them vulnerable and then attack then with their sword?

Cause I feel like that is basically the same thing.

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Re: multiple attack actions with multi target

Postby TorgHacker » Tue Apr 02, 2019 3:33 pm

Sir Awesome wrote:@Torghacker

Do you feel the same when someone Taunts 3 targets to make them vulnerable and then attack then with their sword?

Cause I feel like that is basically the same thing.


No, we've specifically ruled on that. All modifiers are done first. So they're not Vulnerable when you attack them with your sword. It is admittedly, not as clear as it should be in the rules. Here's the relevant part:

"Generate a single bonus for all the actions, apply
the penalty and any other modifiers, then resolve
each in whatever order she chooses (or makes sense)."
Deanna Gilbert
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Re: multiple attack actions with multi target

Postby Sir Awesome » Tue Apr 02, 2019 4:09 pm

I found your post from the previous ruling:
"Put explicitly:

1. Generate the bonus.
2. Apply -2 penalty for Multi-Action.
3. Apply any other modifiers.
4. Resolve:
4a. Resolve the Interaction attack. Target becomes Vulnerable.
4b. Resolve the attack.

All of the modifiers are applied in step 3. Target doesn't become Vulnerable until Step 4a."


So determining if the attacks hit and how successful they are isn't part of resolving the attack?

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Re: multiple attack actions with multi target

Postby TorgHacker » Tue Apr 02, 2019 4:28 pm

Sir Awesome wrote:I found your post from the previous ruling:
"Put explicitly:

1. Generate the bonus.
2. Apply -2 penalty for Multi-Action.
3. Apply any other modifiers.
4. Resolve:
4a. Resolve the Interaction attack. Target becomes Vulnerable.
4b. Resolve the attack.

All of the modifiers are applied in step 3. Target doesn't become Vulnerable until Step 4a."


So determining if the attacks hit and how successful they are isn't part of resolving the attack?


Yes. But the modifiers are all applied in step 3. So you resolve the interaction attack. Target becomes Vulnerable. Then you resolve the attack... but you don't add the Vulnerable modifier, because that's already done with in step 3.

Resolving the different actions only means you see if you succeeded...but the modifiers to determine that are already set.
Deanna Gilbert
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Ulisses North America

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Re: multiple attack actions with multi target

Postby Count Thalim » Tue Apr 02, 2019 4:50 pm

It is all of these sorts of interactions between different rules that make me glad I am not a games designer.

It would turn my brain to mush trying to:
a) Identify them initially
b) Work out how to manage them
c) Keep my rulings straight when new ones pop up
and finally d) Survive the copious amounts of alcohol I would require after someone finds a new way to wrap my rules into a pretzel. :shock:
Per Sanguis Ad Astra

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Re: multiple attack actions with multi target

Postby Sir Awesome » Tue Apr 02, 2019 4:57 pm

@ Torghacker:

But vulnerable doesn't modify my action. The way that you wrote it would imply that you tally any modifiers to my action then do the taunt, target goes vul, then do the attack.

So are you saying that it should works like this?

1. Generate the bonus.
2. Apply -2 penalty for Multi-Action.
3. Apply any other modifiers to both my action and the targets DN.
4. Resolve hits and effects like so:
4a. Find out if the Interaction attack hits and the level of success
4b. Find out if the attack hits and the level of success.
4c. Resolve the effect of the interaction attack. The target becomes Vulnerable
4d. Resolve the effect of the attack. The target takes dmg.


This is very different than what you said before. I am sorry if I am being annoying. I write building codes for a living and it is my job to makes sure that rules are clearly interpreted :)

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Re: multiple attack actions with multi target

Postby TorgHacker » Tue Apr 02, 2019 5:14 pm

Sir Awesome wrote:@ Torghacker:

But vulnerable doesn't modify my action. The way that you wrote it would imply that you tally any modifiers to my action then do the taunt, target goes vul, then do the attack.



No, you do all the modifiers to everything. Not just your modifiers...all the modifiers that apply to the target too. Your target is involved with your action.

The bottom line is: you don't get the benefits (or penalties) of your actions until all of the actions are complete. However you want to put that into an algorithm is left as an exercise of the reader. ;)

Rules are, for good or ill, read by humans. Humans are not computers, and if we wrote rules that could be resolved by a computer then it would be really, really, really boring and repetitive text.
Deanna Gilbert
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Re: multiple attack actions with multi target

Postby Atama » Tue Apr 02, 2019 5:23 pm

TorgHacker wrote:Rules are, for good or ill, read by humans. Humans are not computers, and if we wrote rules that could be resolved by a computer then it would be really, really, really boring and repetitive text.

I used to write code. This is very accurate.

I used to write code. :D
“You are a bad person, and should feel bad.”
-TorgHacker (being tongue-in-cheek :D)

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TorgHacker
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Re: multiple attack actions with multi target

Postby TorgHacker » Tue Apr 02, 2019 5:54 pm

I should add something though.

I mean, I get it...and I try really hard when I write to make sure that it's clear in that manner, but that's hard to do and have it readable. :-)

The reason we do this is that there's estimates that 50% of those who buy a product actually never even play it. They just read it. So we have to make THAT part of the experience good too.
Deanna Gilbert
Torg Eternity designer
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