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Re: multiple attack actions with multi target

Posted: Tue Apr 02, 2019 6:01 pm
by Count Thalim
TorgHacker wrote:
The reason we do this is that there's estimates that 50% of those who buy a product actually never even play it. They just read it. So we have to make THAT part of the experience good too.


*Looks at shelves of RPGs*

Yeah, I can understand that....

Re: multiple attack actions with multi target

Posted: Tue Apr 02, 2019 7:46 pm
by utsukushi
TorgHacker wrote:Still don't like it. I'd never read it like that, and now the most efficient way for defeating 15 mooks is to punch, stab, and shoot 5 each rather than shoot 15 with a machine gun.

With different result numbers for each, different damage bonuses for each...uggghhhhhhhhhhhh....

Additionally, my argument was that the Multi-Targeting rules don't specify that you apply them by groups:


Totally with you. My reading had always been that Multi-Action and Multi-Targeting are indeed separate, but are also both.. absolute, I guess? Count up the number of Actions you're doing (eg., Skills you're using) and that's -2 for each; count up the number of Targets you're affecting, and that's -2 for each. And since you kind of automatically make both of those counts just in declaring your action anyway, that's simple and easy and, I think, makes more sense. And it doesn't contradict the rules as written, it's just..how you look at them, I guess.

If you're trying to stab and intimidate someone, that's a Multi-Action and you have a -2. If you're trying to stab one person while Intimidating another, that's two Actions affecting two Targets, so you're at a -4, and that makes sense to me because you are splitting your attention, and that should be harder.

Admittedly, that does kind of mean that if you're trying to hurt-and-intimidate two people, you might as well do both to both because that doesn't change your penalties at all, but overall that seems like less of a problem and above all, as you say, a whole lot simpler at the table than actually splitting out your Multi-Action and then applying all different numbers to everyone.

...um, have I mentioned that I do not... always... 100% agree with Darrell?

TorgHacker wrote:The reason we do this is that there's estimates that 50% of those who buy a product actually never even play it. They just read it. So we have to make THAT part of the experience good too.

Also, every once in a while (I think this is like the fourth time) you really open my eyes to something I had just never noticed or thought about before. Plus just... it would be awful to try to write with the kind of precision that players start to want when we really get into the weeds. When I read that message it just... yeah, that's everywhere, so much so that I've always just taken it for granted and never even noticed it was there. This is definitely one I'll think about and work on internalizing better! Thank you.

Re: multiple attack actions with multi target

Posted: Tue Apr 02, 2019 9:45 pm
by TorgHacker
utsukushi wrote:Also, every once in a while (I think this is like the fourth time) you really open my eyes to something I had just never noticed or thought about before. Plus just... it would be awful to try to write with the kind of precision that players start to want when we really get into the weeds. When I read that message it just... yeah, that's everywhere, so much so that I've always just taken it for granted and never even noticed it was there. This is definitely one I'll think about and work on internalizing better! Thank you.


A lot of what I share is lessons about design is stuff that I wasn't aware of until I started working on Torg Eternity...and I'd been on two other projects before. Mind you, I wasn't as in depth with the other two projects as I am obviously on this one.

Especially now that I've been involved in actually DOING layout, and development and ....OMG. :-)

Like I've said, I will never, never, ever complain about Page XX errors again. :lol:

Re: multiple attack actions with multi target

Posted: Tue Apr 02, 2019 10:06 pm
by Savioronedge
Just thinking in text format, any use anyone makes of these ramblings is their own problem:

Jonny is an Asian Assassin (patterned off the guy from RED 2) who may or may not have transformed in the axiom wash. He routinely goes into combat with a sword in one hand and an uzi in the other, and he always wears steal toe boots. He has a Dex of 10 and Fire Combat, Unarmed Combat, and Melee Weapons at 3 adds each, and has just realized he wants to get Whirlwind because he is facing 3 opponents...

Option A
Take out 1...He slashes 1 then kicks him away before shooting him
Penalties -4 Multi action.

B one each
Slash, Kick, Shoot ...
3 targets, 3 actions
-8 MA + MT total, with Whirlwind he would kick, then slash, then shoot, eliminating-2 from multitargeting using Melee.

C go for broke: slice them up, roundhouse the lot, and blaze away
[My opinion is not meant to reflect actual rules here]
Action 1 Targets 3 penalty -4
Action 2 -2 Targ 3 -4
Action 3 -2 Targ 3 -4
Total penalty -16. Hope he has a Hero and a Possibility...and if he had Whirlwind he would save 2 points of penalties.

We now return you to actual discussion:

I don't see how one can accept that performing twice or three times the total number of actions can have the same penalty. I do see how ruling that option B and C above both get -8 (3 actions, 3 targets) is easier. It just seems to rob the entire process of the dramatic flare...why would anyone ever NOT choose C over B?

Re: multiple attack actions with multi target

Posted: Tue Apr 02, 2019 10:24 pm
by Doomweber
I think another thing we need to remember is the time max on a round, it's ten seconds. A very important factor in the number of actions/targets that a knight can go after is how long each of these actions would take. The first attacks (Three melee against three different targets, depending on closely packed they are) might very well push that time limit. The idea that a knight could do 5 melee attacks, 5 unarmed combat attacks, and 5 fire combat attacks in ten seconds is almost to the point of absurd unless the 15 are being rushed through a doorway or some other unusual situation. In remembrance of the anniversary of a movie that visualized net travel, we are not all Neo here, mister Anderson.

Re: multiple attack actions with multi target

Posted: Tue Apr 02, 2019 10:36 pm
by utsukushi
But we are all Agent Smith, as I recall.

Hmm... I'm not sure where your Option C is going, honestly, Savioronedge, but I do see your point in B. It's a bit broken to think that doing three things each to three people is the same as doing one thing each to three people.

I'm afraid a really good answer to this is going to involve multiplication, though.

Re: multiple attack actions with multi target

Posted: Tue Apr 02, 2019 11:02 pm
by Atama
We have a house rule that you can’t do more than one attack a round. I don’t think it’s even a formal rule, it’s just us avoiding Munchkin cheese. Otherwise everyone with a melee attack would add an unarmed attack because why not? For only -2 to your attack roll you get to do damage a second time. You’d never not do it. Or pistol one hand, sword in another, and then a kick. A -4 to your attack for three separate damage results. Let’s take Pyrokinesis too, you don’t need hands for that.

We just don’t play that way. Keep it simple, keep it fun.

Re: multiple attack actions with multi target

Posted: Wed Apr 03, 2019 4:31 am
by Sword of Spirit
If I understand the FAQ correctly, you can only do damage to the same opponent once, so this is all about attacking many opponents (unless you just want to do non-stacking damage for fun).

Re: multiple attack actions with multi target

Posted: Wed Apr 03, 2019 8:59 am
by TorgHacker
Sword of Spirit wrote:If I understand the FAQ correctly, you can only do damage to the same opponent once, so this is all about attacking many opponents (unless you just want to do non-stacking damage for fun).


You understand correctly.

Re: multiple attack actions with multi target

Posted: Wed Apr 03, 2019 11:57 am
by mica
Does everybody play by the RAW when calculating penalties or do GM's simply wing it based on rule of thumb and a fair bit of handwavium?
i.e. 15 minutes ploughing through the RAW as above to work out -8, poss -12 or 'wow, sounds near impossible, call it a -10 and bollox to the maths'