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Re: New ruling: Spells, miracles, psionic powers end if the target gets out of range or line of sight.

Posted: Fri Apr 05, 2019 9:17 am
by Kuildeous
I feel like LOS is being taken too literally here. I'm not sure that's the intent. It doesn't feel quite right to me.

I would see having a line of effect. Basically if you could throw a hypothetical baseball (without need for arc or crazy strength) and hit the target without hitting any obstacles, then that counts.

So I couldn't see a little thing like darkness stopping the effect. You can still throw a hypothetical baseball at them. If there is no range limitation on the ability, then I'd also allow for someone being 200 meters away as long as you can still draw a line to them.

I feel like this could eliminate some confusion.

There's still the issue of someone ducking behind a car or stepping around a corner to break the effect. For narrative reasons, I would say that doesn't break the effect, despite it failing my hypothetical baseball test. It should take more than a basic obstacle to break effect. I'd rule it on a case-by-case basis, but if I had to document specific rules, I'd probably say that if you can block the effect for at least 30 seconds straight, then the effect is broken. Guy hiding behind a car is still susceptible if he leans out to shoot people since he's re-establishing the link. Walking into a house and staying there will eventually break it.

Those are my thoughts on it anyway. The GM may have to make rulings for the story, but it's possible for the rules to be abused, so I get why rulings are sometimes necessary.

Re: New ruling: Spells, miracles, psionic powers end if the target gets out of range or line of sight.

Posted: Fri Apr 05, 2019 9:29 am
by Sunrunner
Ok I can understand the ruling for concentration spells. The caster is actively feeding energy into the spell and/or maintaining the spell weave. If you move out of range you break the link and cant supply more energy to keep the spell going and if you get out of LOS you cant see your spell weave anymore so you cant concentrate on keeping the right spell forms etc., apply appropriate fluff here but I can see valid reasons.

Fixed duration spells are where the problems start. Pretty much all the combat buff and debuff spells like Curse, Enhance, Diminish, bless, strike etc. all have a 3 round duration. So I spend my round cursing the big bad, spend a possibility and get that sweet sweet outstanding success for a -3 to everything hes gonna do. But then he calmly takes 2 steps back into his office and breaks LOS and then takes 2 steps back into the warehouse and proceeds to take his turn curse free? WHY AM I HERE? Its pretty easy in most fight scenarios to break LOS with part of your move and still come back to have LOS to the party. Same goes if I Bless my party hitter, he goes into the office and is out of LOS and most likely the 5 METER range of bless, and BAM no more bless. Again back to WHY AM I HERE? Why did i waste perks on these spells again? I see endless negative play experiences on both sides of the table with this. Breaking LOS is way to easy and will trivialize removal of alot of game effects for both the GM doing it to cancel player effects and the Players doing it to remove NPC effects. Range is also a consideration, I RUN up and barely get the big bad in my 25 meter curse range and curse him as my action, he calmly takes 1 step back and 1 step forward thus negating my entire turn because he got out of range of the spell? Again back to WHY AM I HERE? The "Why am I here?' question is one players should very rarely ask, its not a fun one.

I see fixed duration spells as something where all the power they need was provided in the initial casting. Its why they run out in 3 rounds, they either ran out of magical energy or the spell weave became unstable and collapsed etc. again insert your fluff here but the core concepts remain. Once I have stuck the magical sticky mine on you it no longer matters if your in range I tagged you with it and it has no connection to the caster so range and LOS are irrelevant.

Re: New ruling: Spells, miracles, psionic powers end if the target gets out of range or line of sight.

Posted: Fri Apr 05, 2019 9:33 am
by Gargoyle
Kuildeous wrote:I feel like LOS is being taken too literally here. I'm not sure that's the intent. It doesn't feel quite right to me.

I would see having a line of effect. Basically if you could throw a hypothetical baseball (without need for arc or crazy strength) and hit the target without hitting any obstacles, then that counts.

So I couldn't see a little thing like darkness stopping the effect. You can still throw a hypothetical baseball at them. If there is no range limitation on the ability, then I'd also allow for someone being 200 meters away as long as you can still draw a line to them.

I feel like this could eliminate some confusion.

There's still the issue of someone ducking behind a car or stepping around a corner to break the effect. For narrative reasons, I would say that doesn't break the effect, despite it failing my hypothetical baseball test. It should take more than a basic obstacle to break effect. I'd rule it on a case-by-case basis, but if I had to document specific rules, I'd probably say that if you can block the effect for at least 30 seconds straight, then the effect is broken. Guy hiding behind a car is still susceptible if he leans out to shoot people since he's re-establishing the link. Walking into a house and staying there will eventually break it.

Those are my thoughts on it anyway. The GM may have to make rulings for the story, but it's possible for the rules to be abused, so I get why rulings are sometimes necessary.


Yeah, I agree. I just picture players trying to do the blanket trick where you fool your dog. Sorry but this GM won't allow peekaboo. Same with stepping around a corner. I think the LoS thing is fine if a GM is empowered enough to not allow such things. Rules for a multi-genre role playing game like Torg need to come with a big dose of GM empowerment. A more loose wording could be more appropriate, such as saying "out of sight and not in the area" than LoS, but this isn't a miniatures game.

Re: New ruling: Spells, miracles, psionic powers end if the target gets out of range or line of sight.

Posted: Fri Apr 05, 2019 9:35 am
by mica
LOS and even range does sound right in some cases but not all. I suppose it comes down to where the power is focused, i.e. is there are continual stream from the caster to the target or has the effect been set on the target and now it is largely out of the control of the caster.

An example of the former is mind control where LOS, scrying devices, cameras, telescope and relative proximity etc may be required to preserve the link between caster and target. An example of the latter is a magical fireball that can be arced over the battlements of castles to explode in the courtyards (not much use if it goes out without exploding the second it drops behind the wall).

I would be tempted to make them a GM call for the most part with requirement for concentration tests with difficulty based on degrees of separation so relatively easy if within range but just round the corner to massive penalty if over the phone in a different continent (using difference in value table as penalty).

I fell into the trap when running Torg of relinquishing GM autonomy, control and fiat in favour of the mechanics because unlike other systems the mechanics are so far reaching and account for so many situations. That said they have the potential to be interpreted so many ways (especially by rules lawyering players).

I'm now going full circle and just thinking, feck it, if it works for the story this one time, allow it, if it doesn't, tough - blame it on fluctuating realities and a high Narrative Axiom! Providing you aren't continually shutting your players down and give them plenty of opportunity to shine, it's all good.

Re: New ruling: Spells, miracles, psionic powers end if the target gets out of range or line of sight.

Posted: Fri Apr 05, 2019 9:39 am
by Sunrunner
Problem is LOS is a game rule, its not being taken too literal, its in the rules. And while I appreciate the Line of Effect ruling your going for from D&D, D&D has specific rules governing Line of Effect as well as LOS. Torg only has LOS rules and its a binary state, either you have it or you do not. Also this ruling has no time stipulations attached to it. If it said - if LOS is blocked for 1 round the spell ends for example, it would start to fit your thought process. As it stands breaking LOS ends the spell immediately, and given the fluid movement allowed in Torg its very easy to break LOS with a small portion of your movement to cleanse of spells and then return to LOS with the party and comence attacking them etc.

Kuildeous wrote:I feel like LOS is being taken too literally here. I'm not sure that's the intent. It doesn't feel quite right to me.

I would see having a line of effect. Basically if you could throw a hypothetical baseball (without need for arc or crazy strength) and hit the target without hitting any obstacles, then that counts.

So I couldn't see a little thing like darkness stopping the effect. You can still throw a hypothetical baseball at them. If there is no range limitation on the ability, then I'd also allow for someone being 200 meters away as long as you can still draw a line to them.

I feel like this could eliminate some confusion.

There's still the issue of someone ducking behind a car or stepping around a corner to break the effect. For narrative reasons, I would say that doesn't break the effect, despite it failing my hypothetical baseball test. It should take more than a basic obstacle to break effect. I'd rule it on a case-by-case basis, but if I had to document specific rules, I'd probably say that if you can block the effect for at least 30 seconds straight, then the effect is broken. Guy hiding behind a car is still susceptible if he leans out to shoot people since he's re-establishing the link. Walking into a house and staying there will eventually break it.

Those are my thoughts on it anyway. The GM may have to make rulings for the story, but it's possible for the rules to be abused, so I get why rulings are sometimes necessary.

Re: New ruling: Spells, miracles, psionic powers end if the target gets out of range or line of sight.

Posted: Fri Apr 05, 2019 11:35 am
by Sir Awesome
Image
So this is a thing in torg now?

Re: New ruling: Spells, miracles, psionic powers end if the target gets out of range or line of sight.

Posted: Fri Apr 05, 2019 12:21 pm
by Sir Awesome
But seriously this ruling with LoS and range is really problematic for several reasons.

1) it increases the need for everyone playing to really pay attention to all ranges for every ally and enemy. Increasing book keeping/need to play on a grid
2) Line of sight is not really well defined. Most of the time LOS is obvious I will give you that, but this ruling greatly increases the importance of "can I see them?" This game is very very vague with the details about when you can't see someone any more with Darkness/Invisibility/Concealment. This will cause arguments in my game.
3) As many people have stated before this greatly nerfs buffs and debuffs if you have to stay with in range/los of the target
4) Does blinding me or knocking me out mean that all my spells turn off including set duration spells?
5) How long do they have to be out of range/LOS? If they run around a corner and then run back in do my spells drop?
6) You said touch spells were the exception. Is that just to the range or is it also to the LOS part?
7) Do you have to see yourself to maintain buffs?

You also have just open up a need to go back and ask a bunch of questions about old spells (Here is what I have found just from the core book. I assume that there would be a lot more if I also looked into Nile or Living Land)

Alarm - Do I need to see my alarm for it to continue? Does this spell turn off when I go to sleep? (if so what is the point of the spell)
Invisibility - Does a -6 penitently mean that I can't been seen? (super awesome spell now if it does)
Darkness - Is this now an AOE cleanse? (Arguably best spell in the game now if it is wipes buffs from the bad guys and debuffs from me)
Pathfinder - How does this work now? (is the idea that magic can only effect what you can see?)
Portal - How does this spell work with LOS? (opens all new kinds of implication with bounce in and out of combat trains of though)
Protective Circle - Does the circle not work anymore as soon as the demon cast darkness? (seams kinda important for this to not happen)
Scrambler - So now I have to be able to see all the electronic for this to work on them? If a camera is behind a two way mirror it will still capture me on video? (Seams kinda bad)
Scry- Can I only scry on things that I can see anyway? (seams kinda pointless, like Liono using sight beyond sight to see something 20 yards in front of him)
Bless - Might as well be a self only spell
Call Animals - Does this only work on animals that I can see?
Repel - If the target is at 5 meters to begin with, Do they still get pushed as one meter back would take them out of range of the spell?


Most of all I don't understand the reasoning behind it. I assume that there is going to be something coming out in Aylse and that was way this decision was made, but it seams like a bad call to make a global change for a new problem.

So with genuine interest I ask why was this done?

Re: New ruling: Spells, miracles, psionic powers end if the target gets out of range or line of sight.

Posted: Fri Apr 05, 2019 12:25 pm
by Atama
Sir Awesome wrote:Image
So this is a thing in torg now?

My LL savage may carry around a potted tree, he’ll drop it and hide behind it when spells are cast. It's a common practice among his tribe. Warriors of his village carry living trees to prove their devotion to Lanala.

My GM would not dare to oppress his culture.

Re: New ruling: Spells, miracles, psionic powers end if the target gets out of range or line of sight.

Posted: Fri Apr 05, 2019 12:29 pm
by Kuildeous
Sir Awesome wrote:Portal - How does this spell work with LOS? (opens all new kinds of implication with bounce in and out of combat trains of though)


I had a ruling recently on this one, so I can answer this.

You do have to be able to see the spot you're portaling to. I had a situation where the mage would portal blindly to a location 2 floors up, and I learned that you need to see the target.

But the other ramifications raise some good questions. I still think LOS is being treated too literally (possibly by both sides) since having a line of sight is not the same thing as actively seeing your target. At least I don't treat them the same. I can see the shelves in my bedroom from my living room, but if I turn 90 degrees, does that break LOS? I don't treat it as such since the line is still there even though I can no longer see my shelves. There is such a thing as getting too nitty gritty, but I do feel these hyperboles are great at pointing out the flaws.

I mean, we haven't even talked about what happens if you blink.

Re: New ruling: Spells, miracles, psionic powers end if the target gets out of range or line of sight.

Posted: Fri Apr 05, 2019 12:32 pm
by Atama
Sir Awesome wrote:Invisibility - Does a -6 penitently mean that I can't been seen? (super awesome spell now if it does)

Why would it? The description of Invisibility states that, “This spell makes the wizard and anything she carries at the time of casting barely visible.” So the spell doesn’t make it so you can’t be seen, despite its name. In addition, a -6 is identical to what you get for 3/4 concealment. So consider it being 3/4 invisible.

I’m sure there’s a reason why there’s no entry in the Concealment chart for being 100% concealed, and I suspect that reason is because at that point people just can’t shoot you if they can’t see you.