Breathe Fire seams really powerful

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TorgHacker
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Re: Breathe Fire seams really powerful

Postby TorgHacker » Fri May 10, 2019 1:30 pm

We're doing errata for this. It is now Axiom: 20.
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Spatula
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Re: Breathe Fire seams really powerful

Postby Spatula » Fri May 10, 2019 7:43 pm

That seems like a good call, given how superior it is to the harder-to-get hellfire; the higher axiom would make it a contradiction outside of the Living Land. I think I would also up the faith requirement as a house rule but it's probably not needed. As it's only on the gotak and Pyrian fire tamer lists I don't think it would ever come up in play; it's more of a NPC miracle.

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Wotan
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Re: Breathe Fire seams really powerful

Postby Wotan » Sat May 11, 2019 7:05 am

Always thought that it was an odd miracle for the Gotak list TBH, breathing fire doesn't feel like a natural fit for Lanala's Gotaks, IMHO. *shrug*

Beyond that, a spammable AoE damage 16 fire attack still feels a bit OP IMHO. I get that higher axioms allow stuff like this, but, in terms of game balance, it still feels a bit much.
It's the dragons I feel most sorry for, according to the Core, they only do Damage 14 with their breath attacks.
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Greymarch2000
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Re: Breathe Fire seams really powerful

Postby Greymarch2000 » Sat May 11, 2019 11:03 am

Wotan wrote:I get that higher axioms allow stuff like this, but, in terms of game balance, it still feels a bit much.


True. "You might disconnect" has never been something that stops any of my players from spamming things.

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TorgHacker
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Re: Breathe Fire seams really powerful

Postby TorgHacker » Sat May 11, 2019 12:25 pm

Wotan wrote:Always thought that it was an odd miracle for the Gotak list TBH, breathing fire doesn't feel like a natural fit for Lanala's Gotaks, IMHO. *shrug*

Beyond that, a spammable AoE damage 16 fire attack still feels a bit OP IMHO. I get that higher axioms allow stuff like this, but, in terms of game balance, it still feels a bit much.
It's the dragons I feel most sorry for, according to the Core, they only do Damage 14 with their breath attacks.


"There aren't enough high Axiom miracles in the Living Land"

"Here's one more"

"It's unbalanced!"

;)

I mean...I could have said Axiom Level: 30. Mechanically in the game it would have the same effect.

Plus...it's not something everyone can take. You need to be a Pyrian or a Gotak. It's not a no brainer that "everyone" will take, because they can't.

Also, I must admit some amusement because I could have sworn one complaint we've had about the miracles, spells, etc was that they weren't powerful enough. :)
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GeniusCodeMonkey
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Re: Breathe Fire seams really powerful

Postby GeniusCodeMonkey » Sat May 11, 2019 3:36 pm

TorgHacker wrote:
Wotan wrote:Always thought that it was an odd miracle for the Gotak list TBH, breathing fire doesn't feel like a natural fit for Lanala's Gotaks, IMHO. *shrug*

Beyond that, a spammable AoE damage 16 fire attack still feels a bit OP IMHO. I get that higher axioms allow stuff like this, but, in terms of game balance, it still feels a bit much.
It's the dragons I feel most sorry for, according to the Core, they only do Damage 14 with their breath attacks.


"There aren't enough high Axiom miracles in the Living Land"

"Here's one more"

"It's unbalanced!"

;)

I mean...I could have said Axiom Level: 30. Mechanically in the game it would have the same effect.

Plus...it's not something everyone can take. You need to be a Pyrian or a Gotak. It's not a no brainer that "everyone" will take, because they can't.

Also, I must admit some amusement because I could have sworn one complaint we've had about the miracles, spells, etc was that they weren't powerful enough. :)


We need psi, miracles and spells with high axioms just like we have tech with high axioms. I think 'our' problems is envisioning what they look like. With tech it's easy as we are a tech centric society, with magic, that's harder. But then that is also why we have the axiom cheat sheet.

I would love to see some spells, psi or miracles for axioms 25+ just to know what's possible.
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vaminion
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Re: Breathe Fire seams really powerful

Postby vaminion » Sun May 12, 2019 1:09 am

2 more damage than Fireball, with a better Outstanding result, but a higher axiom, shorter range, and limited accessibility.

I think it's probably okay but I'd have to see some high axiom magic and psionic powers to really say.

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Re: Breathe Fire seams really powerful

Postby mica » Sun May 12, 2019 3:51 am

As this is breathe fire not fire hose, I would have opted for reducing the range down to 2-3 metres. Then there is a chance that the gotak could experience the rapture of a good old immolation along with those around him unless his faith was particularly strong. This would then also reduce spamming as a few low rolls would either tap out his possibility or send the party to the nearest burns unit.

I have no problem with powerful miracles, it is the ability to spam them every round with no cost or risk that feels odd. There isn't even tenets of faith that can be broken in the living land so violating everything the faith stands for using the faith's very miracles is surprisingly acceptable.

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Re: Breathe Fire seams really powerful

Postby GeniusCodeMonkey » Sun May 12, 2019 12:42 pm

mica wrote:As this is breathe fire not fire hose, I would have opted for reducing the range down to 2-3 metres. Then there is a chance that the gotak could experience the rapture of a good old immolation along with those around him unless his faith was particularly strong. This would then also reduce spamming as a few low rolls would either tap out his possibility or send the party to the nearest burns unit.

I have no problem with powerful miracles, it is the ability to spam them every round with no cost or risk that feels odd. There isn't even tenets of faith that can be broken in the living land so violating everything the faith stands for using the faith's very miracles is surprisingly acceptable.


Their God protects then from risk. If he/she/it wanted the chance of self damage it would be part of the miracle.

I assume there maybe this effect in Tharkold for miracles, spells and psi; probably burn shock (self damage) to power effects. Probably demons damaging/sacrificing slaves for magic power etc.
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Wotan
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Re: Breathe Fire seams really powerful

Postby Wotan » Sun May 12, 2019 2:17 pm

TorgHacker wrote:
Wotan wrote:Always thought that it was an odd miracle for the Gotak list TBH, breathing fire doesn't feel like a natural fit for Lanala's Gotaks, IMHO. *shrug*

Beyond that, a spammable AoE damage 16 fire attack still feels a bit OP IMHO. I get that higher axioms allow stuff like this, but, in terms of game balance, it still feels a bit much.
It's the dragons I feel most sorry for, according to the Core, they only do Damage 14 with their breath attacks.


"There aren't enough high Axiom miracles in the Living Land"

"Here's one more"

"It's unbalanced!"

;)

I mean...I could have said Axiom Level: 30. Mechanically in the game it would have the same effect.

Plus...it's not something everyone can take. You need to be a Pyrian or a Gotak. It's not a no brainer that "everyone" will take, because they can't.

Also, I must admit some amusement because I could have sworn one complaint we've had about the miracles, spells, etc was that they weren't powerful enough. :)

Heh, yeah fair point. :)
FWIW I can see that balancing high Axiom powers, so they're suitably powerful, but not broken in the hands of players, could be a bit of a headache.

I'm not really expecting my opinion to matter much to anyone, just opining that a spammable damage 16 attack, which targets lowest armour, is a thing I'd fear some of my players getting their hands on. It's mechanically the equivalent of unlimited frag grenades, maybe better cos it's fire damage. The main concern would be that it might allow the character to overshadow the other PCs. *shrug*

I can totally see that the LL should have this level of spiritual power, given their Spirit Axiom & other disadvantages, but IMHO it could be a tadge more balanced, e.g. if it had a one round casting time, so it's powerful but not necessarily a go-to. Or lower damage but ancillary effects. *shrug*
/tuppence :)
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