Breathe Fire seams really powerful

utsukushi
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Re: Breathe Fire seams really powerful

Postby utsukushi » Sun May 12, 2019 3:24 pm

I kind of go back and forth a little on how balanced it is. 16-targeting-lowest-armor is slightly less good than Lightning's 16-AP-4 (since AP also works on Full Body armor, and `target lowest armor' doesn't), but of course, the blast effect means it can multi-target with no penalties while Lightning is forbidden to multi-target. And I had always felt that the reason Lightning wasn't allowed to multi-target is because it was too strong, and this seems to run straight against that argument. But I think my issues with it are more thematic -- it strongly implies that it comes out of your mouth, but the mechanics don't back that up.

I think one of the weird things about it is just that it actually describes a lot of the base rules about how, like blasts work. I assume Fireball actually works exactly like this except for not having the ability to be selective - eg, it should also target lowest armor, since it's a big ball of flame, and it will also affect you if you aim it too close, etc. It just doesn't say it all in the text because all of that is already in the rules, so it feels weird seeing it in Breathe Fire like it's special things about this Miracle.

mica wrote:There isn't even tenets of faith that can be broken in the living land so violating everything the faith stands for using the faith's very miracles is surprisingly acceptable.

Well, Gotaks aren't a violation of the faith, though - that's their purpose. Lanala annointed them to handle all the icky stuff so the rest of her jakatts don't have to.

TorgHacker wrote:Also, I must admit some amusement because I could have sworn one complaint we've had about the miracles, spells, etc was that they weren't powerful enough. :)

In fairness, though, we've also all (and by "all" I really mean both us fans and the devs... I think I count you as both. Probably all the devs are both, since I'm trying to be fair here. :lol: Anyway, you know what I mean) .... we've also all talked a whole lot more about power creep, and keeping an eye on that. Which I think we understand is like, super hard, because of course we're also simultaneously asking for the Cosm books to offer really cool stuff.

We just want... you know... perfection. That's all. And we're only getting maybe 92% of it. :evil:

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TorgHacker
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Re: Breathe Fire seams really powerful

Postby TorgHacker » Sun May 12, 2019 6:05 pm

utsukushi wrote:
I think one of the weird things about it is just that it actually describes a lot of the base rules about how, like blasts work. I assume Fireball actually works exactly like this except for not having the ability to be selective - eg, it should also target lowest armor, since it's a big ball of flame, and it will also affect you if you aim it too close, etc. It just doesn't say it all in the text because all of that is already in the rules, so it feels weird seeing it in Breathe Fire like it's special things about this Miracle.



Actually it doesn't. Admittedly, I'm not sure I agree with our ruling myself, but we don't have typed damage per se. That is...just because it's "fire" doesn't mean that it targets the lowest armor. Or just because it's "lightning" it does AP4. The problem comes in from the fact that environmental fire specifies this, but that's when you are literally set aflame.

Now, some abilities do allow this as well, but it's always specified specifically in the power.

But I kinda think we should have had standardized typed damage, because the assumption is sorta there that we do. When we don't really.

TorgHacker wrote:Also, I must admit some amusement because I could have sworn one complaint we've had about the miracles, spells, etc was that they weren't powerful enough. :)

In fairness, though, we've also all (and by "all" I really mean both us fans and the devs... I think I count you as both. Probably all the devs are both, since I'm trying to be fair here. :lol: Anyway, you know what I mean) .... we've also all talked a whole lot more about power creep, and keeping an eye on that. Which I think we understand is like, super hard, because of course we're also simultaneously asking for the Cosm books to offer really cool stuff.

We just want... you know... perfection. That's all. And we're only getting maybe 92% of it. :evil:[/quote]

Sure, but you have to remember, we're getting from the "mundane" spells, etc to the really powerful ones now. I think we could have had some more powerful miracles in the Living Land myself, so I don't mind this getting boosted to 20 at all. Is it _still_ a bit too powerful? Maybe. I'd be more worried if it was more universally accessible, and honestly, I'd probably be really pushing to get the whole thing errated. At this point we're just monitoring and conversing behind the scenes if we should do more.

I will say that _actual_ play results is more important here than hypothesizing. Though in this case we do have a situation where there was a bit of "I'm the best at everything" going on here, and so I'm actually a bit more willing to take a harder hammer to this than I normally would be.

But looking at some of the really powerful spells coming up in Aysle, there definitely are some "safety brakes" there. They're powerful spells, but we're being more willing to apply things like penalties to casting tests, even for straight up combat spells (ie it's not just vs the target's dodge). There are prerequisites...not just Beta Clearnace (though I do kinda understand why some don't like it, it DOES provide something of a power criteria)...but also you have to have the "lesser" spell first. So it's almost 'wasting' a spell choice.

Anyways, if it turns out that Breathe Fire is the only spell/miracle/etc that is a bit OP, I'm okay with that...since as I said, only a few specific builds can even take it.
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Greymarch2000
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Re: Breathe Fire seams really powerful

Postby Greymarch2000 » Sun May 12, 2019 7:48 pm

Yet we don't see anyone complaining that C9 is just all around better than dynamite.

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Wotan
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Re: Breathe Fire seams really powerful

Postby Wotan » Sun May 12, 2019 8:07 pm

TorgHacker wrote:
utsukushi wrote:
I think one of the weird things about it is just that it actually describes a lot of the base rules about how, like blasts work. I assume Fireball actually works exactly like this except for not having the ability to be selective - eg, it should also target lowest armor, since it's a big ball of flame, and it will also affect you if you aim it too close, etc. It just doesn't say it all in the text because all of that is already in the rules, so it feels weird seeing it in Breathe Fire like it's special things about this Miracle.



Actually it doesn't. Admittedly, I'm not sure I agree with our ruling myself, but we don't have typed damage per se. That is...just because it's "fire" doesn't mean that it targets the lowest armor. Or just because it's "lightning" it does AP4. The problem comes in from the fact that environmental fire specifies this, but that's when you are literally set aflame.

Now, some abilities do allow this as well, but it's always specified specifically in the power.

But I kinda think we should have had standardized typed damage, because the assumption is sorta there that we do. When we don't really.

Yeah, having some "fire" damage which doesn't work like fire damage, is a bit confusing IMHO.

Breathe Fire does specify that it hits lowest armour &, having just checked the Core, Fireball, Hellfire & Pyrokinesis all specify that they're fire damage, but only Fireball specifically follows that with a page reference for the fire damage rules.
Does this mean that Hellfire and Pyrokinesis are intended to be normal damage? I can't speak for how others might read it, but with fireball calling out fire damage, and then giving a page ref, I'd assume the same intent for any case where a damage source is specified as being fire, even if the fire rules aren't directly referenced.
/Confused & pedantic of Devon :)
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Wotan
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Re: Breathe Fire seams really powerful

Postby Wotan » Sun May 12, 2019 8:14 pm

Greymarch2000 wrote:Yet we don't see anyone complaining that C9 is just all around better than dynamite.

Respectfully Greymarch that feels like a bit of an apples & oranges comparison to me. I'd suggest that the big difference between explosives & big damage spells, is that it's way easier for a GM to control a PC's access to explosives, so that they don't become a go-to, than it is to limit a power's use once it's learnt.
I mean there are still ways, obviously, but IMHO they're more limited and if overused are likely to make the player in question sad that they don't often get to use a power they spent XP on. *shrug*
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vaminion
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Re: Breathe Fire seams really powerful

Postby vaminion » Sun May 12, 2019 8:26 pm

Greymarch2000 wrote:Yet we don't see anyone complaining that C9 is just all around better than dynamite.


Yeah I don't actually see the problem unless Fireball really isn't supposed to target the lowest armor on the target. But in that case I'd just remove that aspect of Breathe Fire and move on. But as long as it's just Fireball+2+party friendly on an Outstanding success, I really don't get why this is somehow horrendously OP compared to Fireball or Lightning Bolt.

Spells/miracles/powers are built on a system that encourages spamming powers. Caster should be good at what they do. Don't want Breathe Fire to blow up all of your guys in one roll? Split them up.

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Atama
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Re: Breathe Fire seams really powerful

Postby Atama » Sun May 12, 2019 8:38 pm

Wotan wrote:Yeah, having some "fire" damage which doesn't work like fire damage, is a bit confusing IMHO.

But that’s just not true. Environmental fire as described in the Core Rules (page 136) specifically bookends the discussion on fire damage affecting the lowest-armored area with language about highly incendiary materials catching on fire, and characters caught in fire “they can’t escape”. You shouldn’t assume all fire works that way unless you take it out of context.

I’ve been burnt many times in my life, but that’s a far cry from being fully engulfed in flame. Otherwise my oven mitt wouldn’t work when I take a cookie sheet out of the oven.

You wouldn’t apply drowning rules to every character who gets splashed with a bit of water, would you? ;)
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Wotan
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Re: Breathe Fire seams really powerful

Postby Wotan » Sun May 12, 2019 8:58 pm

Atama wrote:
Wotan wrote:Yeah, having some "fire" damage which doesn't work like fire damage, is a bit confusing IMHO.

But that’s just not true. Environmental fire as described in the Core Rules (page 136) specifically bookends the discussion on fire damage affecting the lowest-armored area with language about highly incendiary materials catching on fire, and characters caught in fire “they can’t escape”. You shouldn’t assume all fire works that way unless you take it out of context.

I’ve been burnt many times in my life, but that’s a far cry from being fully engulfed in flame. Otherwise my oven mitt wouldn’t work when I take a cookie sheet out of the oven.

You wouldn’t apply drowning rules to every character who gets splashed with a bit of water, would you? ;)

Dude, hyperbole? really? :roll:

But, ok, lets break it down:
Core P189, Fireball wrote:The caster shapes and controls the fireball,
then hurls it at his target where it explodes in a
Medium Blast Radius for 14 fire damage (see
Fire, page 136)
.

I don't think it's an unreasonable, from that last (bolded) section to conclude that the page reference for Fire is explaining how "fire damage" works. So what are people to assume when other powers specify "fire damage" but without that page ref?
I'm not saying everyone would do it, but I'd wager that, when they encounter the term "fire damage" later in the book, plenty of people will read it as all working in the way which has already been established earlier, even without that page ref.

So when Hellfire specifies "The flames deal 13 fire damage"
and Pyrokinesis "If the kinesis total equals or exceeds the target’s dodge or Dexterity, he’s hit for 14 fire damage."
I'm gonna stand by my assertion that it's kind of confusing, even if you insist it's somehow, objectively, "not true". *shrug*
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vaminion
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Re: Breathe Fire seams really powerful

Postby vaminion » Sun May 12, 2019 9:16 pm

Wotan wrote:I don't think it's an unreasonable, from that last (bolded) section to conclude that the page reference for Fire is explaining how "fire damage" works. So what are people to assume when other powers specify "fire damage" but without that page ref?


The fire rules applying to Fireball is exactly the conclusion my friends and I came to for the exact reason you gave. Fireball mentions those rules. Pyrokinesis and Hellfire don't. In virtually every other game I have played a call out like that means "These rules apply to this spell".

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Re: Breathe Fire seams really powerful

Postby Wotan » Sun May 12, 2019 9:21 pm

vaminion wrote:
Wotan wrote:I don't think it's an unreasonable, from that last (bolded) section to conclude that the page reference for Fire is explaining how "fire damage" works. So what are people to assume when other powers specify "fire damage" but without that page ref?


In every other game I've played a rules call out like that means those rules apply to that spell/power/whatever. Especially when other powers don't have it.

Then it would be less confusing if the later powers, which I quoted above, just said X damage (like every other power which follows the standard damage rules), rather than X fire damage. Including "fire" makes it sound like a specific damage type, with its own rules, and as we have rules for just this damage type, already laid out elsewhere, it doesn't seem like an unnatural leap to make. *shrug*
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