Breathe Fire seams really powerful

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Atama
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Re: Breathe Fire seams really powerful

Postby Atama » Sun May 12, 2019 9:24 pm

vaminion wrote:
Wotan wrote:I don't think it's an unreasonable, from that last (bolded) section to conclude that the page reference for Fire is explaining how "fire damage" works. So what are people to assume when other powers specify "fire damage" but without that page ref?


The fire rules applying to Fireball is exactly the conclusion my friends and I came to for the exact reason you gave. Fireball mentions those rules. Pyrokinesis and Hellfire don't. In virtually every other game I have played a call out like that means "These rules apply to this spell".

Not to mention the book explains why the rules apply. It’s not at all ambiguous. It’s because it’s a blast attack, in other words the target is engulfed in flame just as I mentioned before; fire you can’t escape as it says on page 136. Hellfire and Pyrokinesis are not blast attacks and do not engulf the target in flame.

Yes, if you don’t read the rules thoroughly and make assumptions you might make mistakes. That applies in a lot of situations in life, not just an RPG.
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Greymarch2000
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Re: Breathe Fire seams really powerful

Postby Greymarch2000 » Sun May 12, 2019 11:31 pm

Wotan wrote:
Greymarch2000 wrote:Yet we don't see anyone complaining that C9 is just all around better than dynamite.

Respectfully Greymarch that feels like a bit of an apples & oranges comparison to me.


In a system that's trying to compare effects of different axioms from different realities I think almost all of our examples are going to be more apples to oranges than just straight up comparisons.

We're already comparing axioms levels from two different types of axioms, plus an effect that's common in. many spell lists vs a miracle that's only in one specific list (so far anyway). Plus as a spell there's many other things you can do like multi-action (or even multi-spell with Magister) while miracles must be the only thing you can do, fireballs in Aysle can be enhanced by spending shock, etc etc.

I'm personally not a big fan of the miracle purely due to flavour; I'm not sure what fire breath really has to do with being a Gotak unless it's a real roundabout reference to a controlled burn in a forest to burn away the dead things so new life can grow... but I kinda doubt it. I do think the range is too far but also in my experience almost every encounter happens really close so 5m may as well be 50m so /shrug.

I just don't think it's "broken" and needs to be nerfed is all.

Though I don't know about all this NPC only talk, I thought PCs could still be Gotaks if they took the perks. The Gotaks that still serve Lanala at any rate.

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Re: Breathe Fire seams really powerful

Postby utsukushi » Mon May 13, 2019 2:36 am

TorgHacker wrote:Sure, but you have to remember, we're getting from the "mundane" spells, etc to the really powerful ones now. I think we could have had some more powerful miracles in the Living Land myself, so I don't mind this getting boosted to 20 at all. Is it _still_ a bit too powerful? Maybe. I'd be more worried if it was more universally accessible, and honestly, I'd probably be really pushing to get the whole thing errated.

Oh, I do remember! And for what it's worth, I really like the Clearance Levels as a control on power creep. To some extent, there actually needs to be power creep, because if the characters don't actually get stronger, they can't get up to facing more powerful enemies. Marking those things Beta (or Gamma) Clearance lets you build things into the system to up the whole game without making things available to starting 0-XP characters that really shouldn't be.

And...I know I'm harping on this a bit now, so I apologize, but I do think it's important. Limited availability really seems to me to make something OP a bigger problem, not a smaller one. Assuring that only one player can have a toy this big makes it less fair to everyone else. BUT, I do note that while choosing to be a Gotak is totally an option anyone making a character has, it's not an empty choice -- even once you've decided to play a Faith-centered Edeinos, that's still closing off Optant, and Optant has some nice stuff. And Gotaks need neat things, too, so that it's not too easy to always pick Optant.

Wotan wrote:So when Hellfire specifies "The flames deal 13 fire damage"
and Pyrokinesis "If the kinesis total equals or exceeds the target’s dodge or Dexterity, he’s hit for 14 fire damage."
I'm gonna stand by my assertion that it's kind of confusing, even if you insist it's somehow, objectively, "not true". *shrug*

I'm not quite sure why people are arguing with you on this. They seem to be under the impression that you're arguing that it's absolutely a keyword, and not just that it's a little fuzzy. But I know I've seen Deanna agree several times that she wished it had come out more clearly, whichever way it went -- either actually a keyword sort of thing, or not kind of presented as one.

Atama wrote: It’s because it’s a blast attack

No, Deanna's right there -- it's expressly not because it's a blast attack. Blast attacks specify that "Any armor covering the torso applies." (Second paragraph under Making the Attack -- I only spotted it after she pointed that out.) So it's not because it's a blast and it's not because it's fire -- it's only because it's fire that specifically references the fire rule, which is kind of weird whether you like it or not.

Greymarch2000 wrote: Plus as a spell there's many other things you can do like multi-action (or even multi-spell with Magister) while miracles must be the only thing you can do,

Wait, what? You can totally multi-Action Miracles, can't you? Where does it say a Miracle must be the only thing you can do? I know it says you can only ever invoke one Miracle in a turn, but I don't think there's anything that says you can't invoke a Miracle while casting a Fireball and shooting your SMG.

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Re: Breathe Fire seams really powerful

Postby fougerec » Mon May 13, 2019 7:17 am

utsukushi wrote:Wait, what? You can totally multi-Action Miracles, can't you? Where does it say a Miracle must be the only thing you can do? I know it says you can only ever invoke one Miracle in a turn, but I don't think there's anything that says you can't invoke a Miracle while casting a Fireball and shooting your SMG.


Plus multi-action is the best way to get 3 turns out of strike as opposed to 2 since the duration includes the turn you cast it.

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Re: Breathe Fire seams really powerful

Postby vaminion » Mon May 13, 2019 8:12 am

utsukushi wrote:Wait, what? You can totally multi-Action Miracles, can't you? Where does it say a Miracle must be the only thing you can do? I know it says you can only ever invoke one Miracle in a turn, but I don't think there's anything that says you can't invoke a Miracle while casting a Fireball and shooting your SMG.


Per the FAQ: "Unless you have the Multi-Tasker and Magister Perks, you can't cast a spell and manifest a psionic power as a Multi-Action."

I thought what that was supposed to mean was "You can't multi-action spells/miracles/powers together with each other unless you have the perk", but the FAQ's wording makes it seem like you can't do anything else without the perks. And if you go by the perks the only thing you can do is multi-action a second spell/power.

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Re: Breathe Fire seams really powerful

Postby TorgHacker » Mon May 13, 2019 9:06 am

vaminion wrote:
utsukushi wrote:Wait, what? You can totally multi-Action Miracles, can't you? Where does it say a Miracle must be the only thing you can do? I know it says you can only ever invoke one Miracle in a turn, but I don't think there's anything that says you can't invoke a Miracle while casting a Fireball and shooting your SMG.


Per the FAQ: "Unless you have the Multi-Tasker and Magister Perks, you can't cast a spell and manifest a psionic power as a Multi-Action."

I thought what that was supposed to mean was "You can't multi-action spells/miracles/powers together with each other unless you have the perk", but the FAQ's wording makes it seem like you can't do anything else without the perks. And if you go by the perks the only thing you can do is multi-action a second spell/power.


You can Multi-Action while invoking a miracle...you just can't be doing a psionic power or spell as one of those actions.
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TorgHacker
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Re: Breathe Fire seams really powerful

Postby TorgHacker » Mon May 13, 2019 9:13 am

You know what...this probably actually is deserving of an errata. So...added.
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Re: Breathe Fire seams really powerful

Postby Staffan » Mon May 13, 2019 4:59 pm

fougerec wrote:Plus multi-action is the best way to get 3 turns out of strike as opposed to 2 since the duration includes the turn you cast it.

I'm not sure that would work. Generally, all parameters of an action (including a multi-action) are set when you begin your action - this was discussed in an earlier thread. It's the same principle that says you can't use an Interaction to make a foe Vulnerable and then get +2 when attacking them in the same round with a multi-action.

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Re: Breathe Fire seams really powerful

Postby utsukushi » Mon May 13, 2019 6:28 pm

I think there's a case for Strike, because that affects your damage, which comes after your skill check. But there are similar issues with things like Copycat, Energize, Haste... anything with the 3-round duration that only affects yourself.

My assumption, frankly, has been that they start when they start. Like, if you cast Curse on an enemy in a round in which the Heroes go first, it affects that enemy on their half of the turn, so that's the first round. If you cast it in a round when the Villains have already gone, it doesn't actually have any effect until the next round, so that's the first round of the Miracle. That way it's always consistent - you will always get three rounds of effect. If it starts the round you cast it, sometimes you'll have three and sometimes you'll have two and that makes less sense to me.

Likewise, say, Energize -- it doesn't do anything for you the round you invoke it, so that's not the first round of its effect.

Something like Bless that impacts a whole group? You invoke that on your turn and it affects your friends right away, so that will be the first turn for that. Strike frankly might depend on whether you're casting it on someone else or on yourself. Likewise Enhance can be cast on yourself, or on someone else, or Multi-Targeted -- and that's OK. It's still super easy to just notice the first time it can actually apply to the die and that's when the countdown starts. (But note that obviously that's the first time it can apply to a die, not necessarily the first time it does. Hopefully it's clear that I'm not saying you can cast Strike, then not attack for two rounds, then take a swing and the counter starts fresh. That'd just be silly.)

TorgHacker wrote:You can Multi-Action while invoking a miracle...you just can't be doing a psionic power or spell as one of those actions.

OK! That makes sense. So all the things Concentration applies to are exclusive unless you have a Perk saying otherwise, but you can do any one of those while shooting a gun and Taunting or whatever. Thank you.

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Re: Breathe Fire seams really powerful

Postby Kuildeous » Tue May 14, 2019 9:31 am

utsukushi wrote:I think there's a case for Strike, because that affects your damage, which comes after your skill check. But there are similar issues with things like Copycat, Energize, Haste... anything with the 3-round duration that only affects yourself.

My assumption, frankly, has been that they start when they start. Like, if you cast Curse on an enemy in a round in which the Heroes go first, it affects that enemy on their half of the turn, so that's the first round. If you cast it in a round when the Villains have already gone, it doesn't actually have any effect until the next round, so that's the first round of the Miracle. That way it's always consistent - you will always get three rounds of effect. If it starts the round you cast it, sometimes you'll have three and sometimes you'll have two and that makes less sense to me.

Likewise, say, Energize -- it doesn't do anything for you the round you invoke it, so that's not the first round of its effect.


That's basically how I look at it. If the duration is 3 rounds, then you get 3 rounds of use out of it. Or maybe I'd be bold enough to say 3 actions with the caveat that a Flurry will milk it for more.

And there are edge cases to consider. If the heroes go first, but the last hero blesses their Spirit, then that still counts as their round even though the heroes don't do anything with it. After all, a villain could intimidate or land a hit that requires soaking. The group needs to coordinate their actions. But I'll address those on a case-by-case basis. I'm not going to try to get them with a gotcha.
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