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Breathe Fire seams really powerful

Posted: Wed May 08, 2019 8:19 am
by Sir Awesome
It is just me or does Breathe Fire seam really really powerful. Power 16, elemental fire dmg, I can cast it every round with impunity, and it is a miracle (which in general seam to do less dmg than spells and psi).

What downside am I missing, or is it really a better version of fireball?

Re: Breathe Fire seams really powerful

Posted: Wed May 08, 2019 11:22 am
by Atama
You have to be a Keta Kalles Gotak, so that limits who has access to it.

It also has a range half that of Fireball. I think because of that, it increases the risk of collateral damage.

Re: Breathe Fire seams really powerful

Posted: Wed May 08, 2019 1:03 pm
by utsukushi
I don't really think limited access is a balancing factor. I've always found that "rarity" makes imbalances worse because all it really does is make them much harder to correct, not any less imbalanced.

Comparing it with Hellfire, which has a higher Faith requirement, one fifth the range, and does 13 damage to a single target... I'm not sure. The description on Breathe Fire seems to suggest that it will always include the caster and allies next to them unless you get that Outstanding Success, and that does make sense because it is, after all, coming from their *mouth*. That would sure balance it out nicely! You wouldn't want to use it unless you were ready to really boost that roll, and bad rolls could still easily leave you patting out flames on your suit.

But the 25 range and Medium Blast don't really match up that way - Medium Blast means it will affect you if you happen to be next to your target, and likewise with any allies, but if you're targeting a group 20 meters away, it's not going to hurt you ever. So that just means, OK, it's a ranged attack. It's certainly not the only one. Fireball doesn't even give you the hope of being selective about it.

Given its theme, it should really probably be "Medium Blast, range Touch," so that it always starts adjacent to the caster (again - coming from their mouth) and will affect them and anybody next to them, friend or foe, unless they get the control over it with an Outstanding Success.

...though that would set a risky precedent for my math ninja, so maybe it's better that it doesn't work that way. ;)

Re: Breathe Fire seams really powerful

Posted: Wed May 08, 2019 2:24 pm
by GeniusCodeMonkey
What's its axiom level? General, I would assume, the higher the axiom, the higher the damage. Plus just because the PCs have it, doesn't mean the NPC don't as well.

Re: Breathe Fire seams really powerful

Posted: Wed May 08, 2019 3:16 pm
by utsukushi
Axiom 14 - two lower than Hellfire. I would assume there will generally be even more NPC gotaks than PC gotaks, but that's not really the point, is it?

Re: Breathe Fire seams really powerful

Posted: Wed May 08, 2019 3:30 pm
by TorgHacker
utsukushi wrote:Axiom 14 - two lower than Hellfire. I would assume there will generally be even more NPC gotaks than PC gotaks, but that's not really the point, is it?


Don't compare cross Axioms as far as effects go. It's not set up like that.

Axiom probably should have been 16.

Re: Breathe Fire seams really powerful

Posted: Wed May 08, 2019 4:14 pm
by Atama
utsukushi wrote:I don't really think limited access is a balancing factor. I've always found that "rarity" makes imbalances worse because all it really does is make them much harder to correct, not any less imbalanced.

Comparing it with Hellfire, which has a higher Faith requirement, one fifth the range, and does 13 damage to a single target... I'm not sure. The description on Breathe Fire seems to suggest that it will always include the caster and allies next to them unless you get that Outstanding Success, and that does make sense because it is, after all, coming from their *mouth*. That would sure balance it out nicely! You wouldn't want to use it unless you were ready to really boost that roll, and bad rolls could still easily leave you patting out flames on your suit.

But the 25 range and Medium Blast don't really match up that way - Medium Blast means it will affect you if you happen to be next to your target, and likewise with any allies, but if you're targeting a group 20 meters away, it's not going to hurt you ever. So that just means, OK, it's a ranged attack. It's certainly not the only one. Fireball doesn't even give you the hope of being selective about it.

Given its theme, it should really probably be "Medium Blast, range Touch," so that it always starts adjacent to the caster (again - coming from their mouth) and will affect them and anybody next to them, friend or foe, unless they get the control over it with an Outstanding Success.

...though that would set a risky precedent for my math ninja, so maybe it's better that it doesn't work that way. ;)

I agree that as worded, it seems like it is a medium blast explosion of fire up to 25m away. Not a cone of flame coming from your mouth, incinerating everything in its path (as the name would imply).

I also agree that if it was a cone of flame from the priest’s mouth, it would be more balanced.

What I imagine is that it works just like Fireball but comes out of your mouth. That explains the effect and explains the description of the Miracle.

Re: Breathe Fire seams really powerful

Posted: Thu May 09, 2019 11:52 am
by GeniusCodeMonkey
TorgHacker wrote:
utsukushi wrote:Axiom 14 - two lower than Hellfire. I would assume there will generally be even more NPC gotaks than PC gotaks, but that's not really the point, is it?


Don't compare cross Axioms as far as effects go. It's not set up like that.

Axiom probably should have been 16.


Definitely Spirit Axiom of 16 ...

"Manipulation of the material world or dealing direct damage is viable at long ranges, and may
not even require line of sight."

I suppose that a deity that is "fire and brimstone" based would had damage effecting miracles at lower axioms than one of healing.. or just in their miracle list.

Re: Breathe Fire seams really powerful

Posted: Fri May 10, 2019 7:32 am
by mica
25m is quite a distance and with a faith total of 18 they can easily became something of a one-trick pony, firing it off every round with an outstanding success and quickly reducing even serious threats to charcoal without singeing their fellow stormknights. It is this sort of thing that can frustrate a party as the alpha player reasonably suggests dealing with all threats to conserve ammo etc. Similar thing can happen when any character can multi-target the entire opposition with a strong chance of an outstanding success.

When I ran some of the scenarios, the adventure rate of 1 Edeinos per character was an absolute joke. A few minutes setting up the scene, first action and and an outstanding trick and the edeinos all go blundering off following the Good Year Blimp before the other characters get to do anything. The Cartel Assassin or Mr Maneuver (super skill + max dex) are other good ones for routinely taking out 7+ enemies in a single action. And when you have 4 players routinely sidelined in combat it can get annoying for them.

Re: Breathe Fire seams really powerful

Posted: Fri May 10, 2019 9:12 am
by vaminion
mica wrote:25m is quite a distance and with a faith total of 18 they can easily became something of a one-trick pony, firing it off every round with an outstanding success and quickly reducing even serious threats to charcoal without singeing their fellow stormknights. It is this sort of thing that can frustrate a party as the alpha player reasonably suggests dealing with all threats to conserve ammo etc. Similar thing can happen when any character can multi-target the entire opposition with a strong chance of an outstanding success.


We noticed that in our game as well. The math broke down hard once one player was too far ahead of the others.