Thoughts on a homebrew perk?

Savioronedge
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Re: Thoughts on a homebrew perk?

Postby Savioronedge » Sun Sep 22, 2019 8:24 pm

When I first read this idea, I immediately thought of Fezig...not Andre's character in the movie which must not be remade, but my Troll Physical Adept named after him.

However, I like the idea of making it Human only. Other races can have their own varieties of really needed. In lore, all the Huge dwarves, elves, and fairies I can think of ended up being Humans raised in hiding.

I would suggest this be limited to Humans, at creation only, give the +1 STR and Max, +1 Wound, Large penalties and Max Dex penalty.

Just my thoughts.

Wakshani
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Re: Thoughts on a homebrew perk?

Postby Wakshani » Mon Sep 23, 2019 12:04 am

So, hrm.

Make it a Human perk (Since those are in the Beta primer) and 10+ Strength and go with:

Increase your racial maximum for Strength by +1
Gain +1 Strength
Gain Large (+2 to-be hit)

Clean it up a bit in terms of wording and call it fair?

Savioronedge
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Re: Thoughts on a homebrew perk?

Postby Savioronedge » Mon Sep 23, 2019 4:39 am

Wakshani wrote:Gain Large (+2 to-be hit)


Note: many GMs alter the chance of randomly being hit by firing into combat for large targets, too.

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Wotan
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Re: Thoughts on a homebrew perk?

Postby Wotan » Mon Sep 23, 2019 5:05 am

Wakshani wrote:So, hrm.

Make it a Human perk (Since those are in the Beta primer) and 10+ Strength and go with:

Increase your racial maximum for Strength by +1
Gain +1 Strength
Gain Large (+2 to-be hit)

Clean it up a bit in terms of wording and call it fair?

Large opponents usually get an extra +2 Shock (Core P264)
I dunno if that might crap on the Endurance Perk though? I don't think it does*, but I can't help playing Devil's Advocate, even with my own suggestions *grin*

*Breaking it down, a stat increase perk is usually +1 to an Attribute, no increase in Max.
So extra stuff this would be doing is:
Increasing Racial Max (a potential which still requires other resources to fully take advantage of,) and,
Granting Large (IMHO +2 Shock doesn't completely balance out being 2 easier to hit. If this character's gonna be pumping Str they're probably not gonna have a great Dex to counteract what's effectively a defense penalty. Mooks are gonna hit more frequestly, elites and bosses are more likely to get Good+ successes to hit.)

/tuppence
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Spatula
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Re: Thoughts on a homebrew perk?

Postby Spatula » Mon Sep 23, 2019 12:29 pm

Getting hit more doesn’t mean so much when you have a high Toughness. Except for the occasional exploding roll. It's different for PCs than NPCs, as the NPCs hitting the PCs generally won't have the PCs' firepower.

My thought is that if you want to start at peak strength, then just do that (i.e. start with the racial max). That will require enough sacrifices elsewhere that the Dexterity cap won’t be an issue.

That said, this is basically Super-Strength without needing to be from the Nile (does it stack with Super-Strength?). The pulp power downside is that Strength checks become contradictory outside the Nile... Which honestly probably doesn’t come up that much - certainly not as much as having Dexterity tests be contradictory would. So a -2 to one’s combat defenses sounds to me like more than enough of a trade-off. Maybe too much, even.
Last edited by Spatula on Mon Sep 23, 2019 2:10 pm, edited 2 times in total.

utsukushi
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Re: Thoughts on a homebrew perk?

Postby utsukushi » Mon Sep 23, 2019 1:34 pm

That's what I keep running into. I wouldn't argue that Strength isn't a pretty big deal, especially increasing your base Strength and getting the Toughness with it -- but functionally, this is spending a Perk and giving up Darksight to be a tall Dwarf. Since Races don't transform and you can always include Transformation in your background, you could already play a CE or, heck, Nile Dwarf with Super Strength, if you wanted to.

Adding the Large penalty on top of that seems extreme. I won't argue that Andre the Giant wasn't about twice the size of those of us who aren't direct line descendants of Hercules, but...

It does occur to me that "And I'm Large" would probably be valid Major Limitation on Super Strength - that would apply constantly, afterall. Which means that making this a +2 (to both racial max and actual Strength, just like Super Attribute would do) would probably balance the Large factor fairly.

Or you could just be from the Nile and do it that way.

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Spatula
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Re: Thoughts on a homebrew perk?

Postby Spatula » Mon Sep 23, 2019 2:11 pm

utsukushi wrote:That's what I keep running into. I wouldn't argue that Strength isn't a pretty big deal, especially increasing your base Strength and getting the Toughness with it -- but functionally, this is spending a Perk and giving up Darksight to be a tall Dwarf.

Well, a tall, night-blind dwarf with +1 attribute point.

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Kuildeous
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Re: Thoughts on a homebrew perk?

Postby Kuildeous » Tue Sep 24, 2019 11:20 am

I’m going to dissent a bit and ask what is the intent of this perk? If it’s just to represent a circus strongman or Andre the Giant, then you don’t need to increase the racial max. That’s already built into the system. A character with an 8 Strength is about average. A 10 Strength is a pretty buff person. A 13 Strength? That’s at the peak end of human capacity. A 13 Strength should already reflect your peak Arnold Schwarzenegger and your Andre the Giant. In fact, I might say Andre might be a 12, but that’d be getting lost in the weeds. The fact is that your upper-end bodybuilder is already at the human maximum, so what are you trying to represent with a Strength of 14?

Strength 14 should be superhuman territory. The Nile power covers this. Cyberware or biotech could cover this. A magical belt could cover this. Being nonhuman could make you superhuman (in other ways if not in Strength). I’m having a hard time seeing justification for saying that being huge should push the racial max since the racial max already covers that.

There is precedent for perks that +1 an attribute, so having the perk give +1 to Strength is within reason. If you want to play up the +2 to get hit, I could see expanding it to +1 to strength and 2 extra shock. Possibly an extra wound. After all, +2 for enemies to hit you is a pretty major weakness. It’s like +1 Strength and -2 Dexterity on defense. You’ll need more than just +1 Strength to offset that penalty.
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utsukushi
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Re: Thoughts on a homebrew perk?

Postby utsukushi » Tue Sep 24, 2019 12:52 pm

That's a pretty good point, though my feeling from the start of this was that Andre was exactly the right example because he was, genetically, different. Arnold, yes, is a perfect example of just being the peak of what most of us could do if we made the sacrifices (and another totally unbalanced character, I might add.) But Andre was literally a mutant; he had superhuman potential. Whether he achieved that limit or not is, I agree, beside the point. It's also why he's the only example that fits for this, but Core Earth isn't just Earth, and PCs are the exceptions in an exceptional world.


...But the more I think about it, the more I think it would make sense to just make the exception and allow Super Attribute outside the Nile. It does everything you want it to do and it's already all in the rules, and it's just allowing an exception for a good backstory. If you don't want to officially allow the exception, build it that way and then don't call it that.

(And I have now used the word `exception' an exceptionally large number of times for one post. I'll just try to accept that.)

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Gargoyle
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Re: Thoughts on a homebrew perk?

Postby Gargoyle » Tue Sep 24, 2019 1:14 pm

I've never liked the whole give them a +1 to Strength or increase their maximum approach for "strong" races or individuals. It really isn't necessary to fulfill what you are going for.

Strength is a funny thing, you can describe a character who is small, lithe and wiry with 13 Strength, or one who is huge. It can be a woman or man, it can be a little person or a giant and I feel that you should be able to separate the physical description from the actual strength stat. Tying it directly to their size just doesn't make sense to me given all the variations possible.

And there are practical reasons; I dislike encouraging excessive dump stats for one. IMO the way to do a "giant" character in TorgE is not to require them to max out Strength or even worse increase the maximum, worse because they will certainly max it and have even more dump stats. And you can get some broken melee builds if there are too many options to boost Strength, and it takes away some shine from existing options like the Nile Empire pulp strength.

I would instead make them better at certain things. For instance increasing their lifting to 12x , and giving them Favored checks on lifting and other Strength checks would work, and maybe require a prerequisite of Strength 10+ and require them to be human or edeinos. I would not make them "Large" as even Andre the Giant wasn't really that big. This approach models the goal of the archetype, they're the ones who are going to be better at lifting the boulder or holding up a collapsing ceiling, but you don't have to worry about them doing tons of melee damage or being forced to dump all their other stats. If you wanted to go further with it, you could give them a +1 or +2 bonus to Intimidation against smaller targets, and if you feel it's too good or want a semi realistic nod to realism you can give enemies a +1 bonus to attack them.

Edit: Sorry, organized my thoughts a little better, paragraphs are handy.
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