Bulletsmith is contradictory, but when?

graethynne
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Bulletsmith is contradictory, but when?

Postby graethynne » Wed Oct 02, 2019 10:03 pm

Hey Folks,

So since it has a star, the Bulletsmith Perk is contradictory. Since there is no role associated with actually making the bullets this must have to do with firing them (or during a surge) when not in Orrorosh. It seams reasonable to me that rolling a 1 when firing the normal ammunition wouldn't cause a contradiction as long as the tech axiom of the Slayer's Gun is supported. Whereas the special shells would all be subject to contradiction because they are made via alchemy. Then I realized that all the shells are made the same way, via Bulletsmithing, and that the AP shell and the Silver shell wouldn't necessarily be any more contradictory than the regular ammunition. But sub-slicing like that seems pretty far out there to me, so I think I have come back around to "any shell fired from a Slayer's Gun is contradictory outside of Orrorsh" full stop. The Monster Hunter can carry a low-tech alternate gun if they are worries about it.

Anyone have thoughts to share?

Grae

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Atama
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Re: Bulletsmith is contradictory, but when?

Postby Atama » Wed Oct 02, 2019 10:17 pm

I’d argue that since the slayer’s gun is provided by a Perk that’s a contradiction outside of Orrorsh that the gun itself is a contradiction.

I’d argue the same for the armor provided by Dragon Warrior, it also is “starred” but if the gear provided by the Perk isn’t a contradiction, the star means nothing.
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graethynne
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Re: Bulletsmith is contradictory, but when?

Postby graethynne » Wed Oct 02, 2019 10:33 pm

Atama wrote:I’d argue that since the slayer’s gun is provided by a Perk that’s a contradiction outside of Orrorsh that the gun itself is a contradiction.

I’d argue the same for the armor provided by Dragon Warrior, it also is “starred” but if the gear provided by the Perk isn’t a contradiction, the star means nothing.


Yeah that's even simpler. =D

Grae

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Here Comes The Flood
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Re: Bulletsmith is contradictory, but when?

Postby Here Comes The Flood » Thu Oct 03, 2019 4:59 am

I always rule in favour of 'no contradiction' because it's more fun for the players to use their iconic gear. Where's the fun in carrying a backup weapon?

So a pulp hero who can fly? Yeah, that's a contradiction.

The guy with the panther? A panther isn't a contradiction as and in itself, so every time it makes an attack, its not a contradiction.

No idea whether that's official (and neither do I care). We play the game for fun, and it helps to keep things simple.
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Atama
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Re: Bulletsmith is contradictory, but when?

Postby Atama » Thu Oct 03, 2019 9:18 am

Here Comes The Flood wrote:I always rule in favour of 'no contradiction' because it's more fun for the players to use their iconic gear. Where's the fun in carrying a backup weapon?

So a pulp hero who can fly? Yeah, that's a contradiction.

The guy with the panther? A panther isn't a contradiction as and in itself, so every time it makes an attack, its not a contradiction.

No idea whether that's official (and neither do I care). We play the game for fun, and it helps to keep things simple.

The fun is in having a complication come up you have to overcome. What if that pulp hero’s whole deal is flying? If her jet pack is her iconic gear do you handwave the contradiction for fun?

I’m not criticizing, run the game the way the table likes it. It’s a game and fun should be the goal. But where do you draw the line? And if you don’t lose access to your best stuff when you disconnect, it’s not nearly as scary. (Though I still think being unable to spend Possibilities is the worst part.)

Don’t forget too, the game has “plot armor” built in. Gear tied to Perks usually finds a way to come back. Otherwise the Perk stops functioning. We’re not talking about losing a piece of gear forever, just maybe for one fight or maybe even just one round if you can reconnect with a roll or the right card.
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vaminion
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Re: Bulletsmith is contradictory, but when?

Postby vaminion » Thu Oct 03, 2019 11:45 am

Atama wrote:I’d argue that since the slayer’s gun is provided by a Perk that’s a contradiction outside of Orrorsh that the gun itself is a contradiction.

I’d argue the same for the armor provided by Dragon Warrior, it also is “starred” but if the gear provided by the Perk isn’t a contradiction, the star means nothing.


That would be my interpretation too.

Here Comes The Flood wrote:I always rule in favour of 'no contradiction' because it's more fun for the players to use their iconic gear. Where's the fun in carrying a backup weapon?


I enjoy matching the gear I have to the situation. Just because I'm playing a guy with a Slayer carbine doesn't mean I don't want to haul out lower tech weapons if the situation demands it.

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Re: Bulletsmith is contradictory, but when?

Postby utsukushi » Thu Oct 03, 2019 12:04 pm

I think the star means, "This thing comes from this reality and is supported not just by its axioms, but its World Laws." It doesn't always have to mean more than that. Dragon Armor that only has the fire resistance is never rolled; it's only going to come up on Surges. It's starred because Aylish magic is involved whether it's relevant or not.

I see Bulletsmith according to the first interpretation - the bullets are alchemical, but the gun is just specialized. I don't see any problem with the silver and AP ones still being contradictions; they're silvered and AP through alchemical means, just like Weird Science is a contradiction even if it's doing something normal science could do. But I do see the point that the gun also comes from a Perk, though, so I can't argue strongly that any Firearms attack it makes isn't a Contradiction. It's just not what I'd expect if I were playing it or how I'd rule if I were GMing. Instinctively, it feels like it's the alchemy that's the problem here and the "basic metal slugs" are, you know, basic.

(Which, I know, is a devastating insult. Those slugs are devastated right now.)

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Kuildeous
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Re: Bulletsmith is contradictory, but when?

Postby Kuildeous » Thu Oct 03, 2019 12:10 pm

I rule the slayer’s gun as a contradiction as well. In fact, one can argue that it’s too good for its tech level due to the occult energies that are unique to Orrorsh.

Slayer’s gun: Range 50/100/200, damage 14, one-handed weapon that can be used in melee

What compares?
An obvious comparison is the Webley Revolver. It’s tech 18 and 14 damage also, but it has a much shorter range.
Another comparison is the Lee-Enfield MK 1. It’s tech 18 (errata’d) and 14 damage, but it’s also a two-handed weapon that cannot be used in melee as anything more than a club.
Even the higher-tech .45 Colt Automatic is inferior to the slayer’s gun. It’s slightly better than the Webley Revolver (more shots and cheaper to produce), but it still won’t compare to the slayer’s gun.
An AK-47 really starts to outpace the slayer’s gun. The slayer’s gun may have superior range and equal damage, but the AK-47 at the higher tech does outpace the slayer’s gun with greater capacity and the ability to fire a long burst.

So yeah, comparing the slayer’s gun to its contemporary equals for that tech level has me convinced that it is just too good of a gun to naturally exist without funky reality maneuvering. Thus, even without the special bullets, it is clearly a contradiction outside of Orrorsh.
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Re: Bulletsmith is contradictory, but when?

Postby Atama » Thu Oct 03, 2019 12:17 pm

The reason the gun seems contradictory to me, just logically speaking and not going by rules interpretations, is that the gun only exists for firing special bullets.

Because the bullets are necessarily large and require exacting specifications, monster hunters who make use of them have standardized a six-chambered, carbine-style gun to fire them—the rounds don’t work in any other kind of weapon.


So if the guns only exist for alchemical bullets, they wouldn’t exist anywhere those bullets don’t exist. That makes them a contradiction, like a dinosaur in Pan Pacifica. As worded that gun is tied to those bullets and one won’t work without the other.

I think it’s a fair compromise to say that if you’re firing the “basic metal slugs” that the gun doesn’t contradict anywhere that supports its Tech axiom. Though note that unlike, say, Ion Gusoku there is not listed Tech axiom with the gun’s other stats. Either that was an oversight, or (my guess) there’s no point listing an axiom because it’s a contradiction outside of Orrorsh anyway so it’s redundant.
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Sword of Spirit
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Re: Bulletsmith is contradictory, but when?

Postby Sword of Spirit » Thu Oct 03, 2019 10:03 pm

Here's a question. Can an Orrorsh native in Orrorsh pick up and use the basic metal slugs in a Slayer's Gun? I would assume they can. Does that mean that, outside of the basic bullets, this is just a really good tech 18 gun?


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