Maelstrom

ZorValachan
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Re: Maelstrom

Postby ZorValachan » Tue Nov 05, 2019 7:53 pm

I wasn't trying to be condescending. I apologize if it came across that way.

I did bring up earlier about the Critical Moment, but again, if done you can't do it again for that Act and you are left without cards. Also reading the rule (pg 113), it can only affect one character's actions (the one who played it or an ally). Maelstrom affects the ability to spend possibilities, not actions. I can see a GM ruling it can't be used because of that.

But my main point is that Playing the Maelstrom with Possibility/Hero/Drama only can make an attack Outstanding (+2BD). It needs more (Perks or Coup de Grace) to put the BBEG down. And this could play out if the BBEG disconnects in the fight, can't spend Possibilities or equivalent to soak. As many times as I've seen someone disconnect on the first round of combat, it's bound to come up at some point. And there is no sure guarantee to have Maelstrom. Even if it's ruled that you can't play Maelstrom after damage but before the soak, players still have many ways to play Maelstrom before they roll their action, get that to an Outstanding and then boost the damage. the end result is the same. That's the one use of it in my game. The player used Maelstrom then all-out-attacked, adrenalin, then got +4BD (Reckless+the Living Land Drama card that gave another +1BD when all-out-attacking) it still left the other threats alive and that's where the other player was unhappy with the prospect of not being able to soak himself.

Side note: the Second Chance card says it can be used on a Mishap. I rule that Disconnection is something different (I have not found anywhere in the books where it says Disconnection is a Mishap). in my game (personal ruling) the Everlaw of One is the most powerful force in the cosmverse. Nothing can reverse/cancel a disconnection (either 1 or 4 case).
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graethynne
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Re: Maelstrom

Postby graethynne » Tue Nov 05, 2019 8:31 pm

ZorValachan wrote:I wasn't trying to be condescending. I apologize if it came across that way.


I didn't think so, but I appreciate the explicit clarification all the same. No harm, done :)

ZorValachan wrote:Also reading the rule (pg 113), it can only affect one character's actions (the one who played it or an ally). Maelstrom affects the ability to spend possibilities, not actions. I can see a GM ruling it can't be used because of that.


That's a pretty funny interaction, I'll have to think on it a bit myself.

ZorValachan wrote: But my main point is that Playing the Maelstrom with Possibility/Hero/Drama only can make an attack Outstanding (+2BD). It needs more (Perks or Coup de Grace) to put the BBEG down. And this could play out if the BBEG disconnects in the fight, can't spend Possibilities or equivalent to soak. As many times as I've seen someone disconnect on the first round of combat, it's bound to come up at some point. And there is no sure guarantee to have Maelstrom. Even if it's ruled that you can't play Maelstrom after damage but before the soak, players still have many ways to play Maelstrom before they roll their action, get that to an Outstanding and then boost the damage. the end result is the same. That's the one use of it in my game. The player used Maelstrom then all-out-attacked, adrenalin, then got +4BD (Reckless+the Living Land Drama card that gave another +1BD when all-out-attacking) it still left the other threats alive and that's where the other player was unhappy with the prospect of not being able to soak himself.


perks, Coup, or a really big base damage number :-) but yes, a simple outstanding isn't automatically enough. And yeah, I can see that other player being a little miffed....

ZorValachan wrote: Side note: the Second Chance card says it can be used on a Mishap. I rule that Disconnection is something different (I have not found anywhere in the books where it says Disconnection is a Mishap). in my game (personal ruling) the Everlaw of One is the most powerful force in the cosmverse. Nothing can reverse/cancel a disconnection (either 1 or 4 case).


WRT to the side nite - Deanna clarified this exact issue in response to a prior question of mine.

TorgHacker wrote:
Although a disconnection has similar mechanics to a Mishap, it is not actually a Mishap.


Cheers!

Grae

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Atama
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Re: Maelstrom

Postby Atama » Wed Nov 06, 2019 9:11 am

ZorValachan wrote:Side note: the Second Chance card says it can be used on a Mishap. I rule that Disconnection is something different (I have not found anywhere in the books where it says Disconnection is a Mishap). in my game (personal ruling) the Everlaw of One is the most powerful force in the cosmverse. Nothing can reverse/cancel a disconnection (either 1 or 4 case).

I’m sure your players are fine with that but I guarantee at least one player at our table would quit over a game rule that harsh. There are times when you can disconnect and it’s mathematically impossible to reconnect without rolling a 20+ die result without the benefit of Possibilities in a pure zone. That could mean spending the fight without being able to use character-defining abilities or equipment. Even using Second Chance as RAW means that can happen if you don’t have the card available but at least the players know there’s some way to prepare for it.

Again, if that works at your table that’s fine of course but I’d be willing to bet that many GMs will foster bad feelings at the table with rulings that harsh, which can only affect players (so there’s no feeling of reciprocation). It’s not like you’re preventing abuse, you’re just deciding you want to make the rules harder than written.

I’d suggest even taking Second Chance cards out of the deck would be better if you don’t want players to avoid disconnection. At least the players aren’t receiving cards they can’t fully utilize in that case.
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Kuildeous
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Re: Maelstrom

Postby Kuildeous » Wed Nov 06, 2019 11:26 am

If players are used to a certain way of playing, then they may not be upset over house rules. Certainly I could see my players grumbling if they sit at a game where Second Chance can’t be used on disconnection. I probably would too. But if the players have just that game to compare it to, they may not even mind.

It’s like how I ran oTorg on hard mode because I interpreted the long-range contradiction incorrectly. I thought that any projectile was subject to that. So Storm Knight fires a laser in Core Earth? Take damage based on your Reality roll vs its effect. Cast a lightning bolt in Living Land? Unbeliever’s Doom in Nippon Tech? All long-range contradictions. My players didn’t play any other way, so there was no complaints. Later we discovered that wasn’t the intent. It made playing convention games interesting.

If the Maelstrom card is being used as a stock ending for any main villain fight, provide other uses for it. Have multiple reality-rated enemies. Use the beta Possibilities on mook fights. Dimthread something. From what I can tell, it looks like Maelstrom could even be used to stop Barak Kaah from showing up due to Eyes of the Saar. GM rolled infinity on the BD? Well, looks like we just get 6+ extra edeinos instead of the literal High Lord of Living Land showing up. Let the players decide if they should spend the Maelstrom card early or wait for the main villain.
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ZorValachan
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Re: Maelstrom

Postby ZorValachan » Wed Nov 06, 2019 11:58 am

Supporter, willpower, action, Up. These all can be used to Reconnect. And the card doesn't say it works for Disconnection only mishaps. Porting characters from OT to TE, this was my first "House Rule". Early in OT it was asked and the answer was no, nothing stops a disconnection. Later it was asked again. The people at WEG had changed and the answer stated then was yes. I've ruled no for 25+ years no one's complained because i tell them upfront. Also i want the players to fear the Everlaw of One. I don't want Second Chance to nullify that.

Edit: i wanted to note that another house rule i use from OT is that a non-contradiction 1 is not an automatic failure. You're at like a -10 or -12 (I'm not home/can't remember), so it's difficult to succeed, but if it is not a contradiction, it's possible. Some of my players tend to have characters carry a few weapons of their tech and lower just for this reason.

My current group has one of my original players of OT and ones that just started.
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TorgHacker
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Re: Maelstrom

Postby TorgHacker » Thu Nov 07, 2019 12:48 pm

Okay, talked about this further with Darrell.

Card play on an action is simultaneous. Normally this doesn't matter. In this case it does. The Malestrom card would prevent the expenditure of the Possibilities, including Hero and Drama cards.

If you want to hit someone with Coup de Grace cards, etc etc...that's fine, because Maelstrom doesn't affect that situation.
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Atama
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Re: Maelstrom

Postby Atama » Thu Nov 07, 2019 2:48 pm

Simultaneous actions are what prevent you from doing an Interaction Attack, putting a Vulnerable state on an enemy, then using that state to make your multi-action Melee Weapons skill better. You can’t benefit from the effect of something else you’re doing simultaneously because it hasn’t happened yet. Allies who act after you do would benefit however. Would that not be the same in this situation?
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utsukushi
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Re: Maelstrom

Postby utsukushi » Thu Nov 07, 2019 4:00 pm

TorgHacker wrote:Okay, talked about this further with Darrell.

Card play on an action is simultaneous. Normally this doesn't matter. In this case it does. The Malestrom card would prevent the expenditure of the Possibilities, including Hero and Drama cards.

*grits teeth*

That's actually pretty brilliant.

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TorgHacker
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Re: Maelstrom

Postby TorgHacker » Thu Nov 07, 2019 5:31 pm

Atama wrote:Simultaneous actions are what prevent you from doing an Interaction Attack, putting a Vulnerable state on an enemy, then using that state to make your multi-action Melee Weapons skill better. You can’t benefit from the effect of something else you’re doing simultaneously because it hasn’t happened yet. Allies who act after you do would benefit however. Would that not be the same in this situation?


That’s fine, because those allies wouldn’t get to spend Possibilities.
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Savioronedge
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Re: Maelstrom

Postby Savioronedge » Fri Nov 08, 2019 2:19 am

TorgHacker wrote:Okay, talked about this further with Darrell.

Card play on an action is simultaneous. Normally this doesn't matter. In this case it does. The Malestrom card would prevent the expenditure of the Possibilities, including Hero and Drama cards.

If you want to hit someone with Coup de Grace cards, etc etc...that's fine, because Maelstrom doesn't affect that situation.


I must say, I have always seen "Maelstrom" as all or nothing. Even in oTORG where you could get one from an invoked reality storm they were pretty much, "All this right here; this is cut off from everything else. Period. Did I stutter?” Look how long Heart of Coyote kept the Gaunt Man out of the war and tell me this thing isn't potent!

I see no logical reason to argue with this ruling. The idea that a Maelstrom could suck the possibility energy out of an ongoing action like a ... well like a ... like a boss sucking the joy out of a workplace chat by walking into the room, like a call coming into your line 13 seconds before you can log off sucks the hope from your heart, like seeing that one person--you know the one--coming towards you sucks all motivation to continue as part of the human race...

I may have played a little too much Drama on that one.


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