Keeping track of modifiers

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Kuildeous
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Re: Keeping track of modifiers

Postby Kuildeous » Thu Nov 21, 2019 12:33 pm

Yeah, but Torg is all about the heroics. I wouldn’t put a hard cap on the action count. It’s up to the GM to rule if a character is being unreasonable. Like, even my outrageous examples aren’t good enough for me to overrule. Swordman running past 12 opponents and slashing them all? Sure. Firing sequential shots at a dozen Shocktroopers? Okay.

I suppose if it’s speech-based, I’d overrule it. Someone trying to taunt Bob and trick Carol and intimidate Olaf would be a hard sell unless the player crafts a really great sentence that does all three. Maybe in an elaborate DSR. Sure, all four steps show up on the card, but is it reasonable that the player solves the hieroglyphic puzzle AND pulls the rusted lever across the room AND runs across the dart corridor AND climbs up the rope to press the button? Okay, not really.

One way to simplify things is to use the rule I used incorrectly when I first ran demos. It’s -2 for each additional action and for each additional target. You shoot two thugs and taunt three thugs? That’s -8 to both skills. I feel that’s too limiting though, and that’s why I dropped it immediately when I realized I was running that wrong. But it certainly is simpler. If -2 for the simplified option is too penalizing, then the one-on-many option could be employed, though that requires most people to consult a table all the time.
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fougerec
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Re: Keeping track of modifiers

Postby fougerec » Thu Nov 21, 2019 12:46 pm

To me limiting the number of actions would take Torg away from the over the top cinematic stuff some characters can pull off. I remember one game where the PCs were outnumbered...significantly...and the Elvish Archer said "so if I take out 10 of them...that's a what penalty?" and then pulled it off through possibilities and cards.

I've never found the modifiers that difficulty to track but i've also played tons of Shadowrun and Rolemaster over the years...

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Gargoyle
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Re: Keeping track of modifiers

Postby Gargoyle » Thu Nov 21, 2019 12:57 pm

Kuildeous wrote:Yeah, but Torg is all about the heroics. I wouldn’t put a hard cap on the action count. It’s up to the GM to rule if a character is being unreasonable. Like, even my outrageous examples aren’t good enough for me to overrule. Swordman running past 12 opponents and slashing them all? Sure. Firing sequential shots at a dozen Shocktroopers? Okay.

And I still allow that, not putting a hard cap on multi-target, just the action. But they have to have enough ammo and rate of fire on the weapon. There are still limitations and that's good, it grounds the game and helps suspend disbelief.

I suppose if it’s speech-based, I’d overrule it. Someone trying to taunt Bob and trick Carol and intimidate Olaf would be a hard sell unless the player crafts a really great sentence that does all three. Maybe in an elaborate DSR. Sure, all four steps show up on the card, but is it reasonable that the player solves the hieroglyphic puzzle AND pulls the rusted lever across the room AND runs across the dart corridor AND climbs up the rope to press the button? Okay, not really.


Have you had more than two interaction attacks with an attack come up with any frequency? I don't GM as much as you, but IME it's usually an interaction attack or some other skill action, typically a DSR step, coupled with a multi-target attack. So I'm not really limiting them more than what I've seen them attempt in actual play. And if they did attempt to hack the security system while shooting three Shocktroopers all while deciphering hyroglypghics or something, I'd also probably say no anyway.

One way to simplify things is to use the rule I used incorrectly when I first ran demos. It’s -2 for each additional action and for each additional target. You shoot two thugs and taunt three thugs? That’s -8 to both skills. I feel that’s too limiting though, and that’s why I dropped it immediately when I realized I was running that wrong. But it certainly is simpler. If -2 for the simplified option is too penalizing, then the one-on-many option could be employed, though that requires most people to consult a table all the time.


Yeah I did that by accident for a while! And I don't think it's horrible but I could see players chafing at it because it's such a nerf to them. Disfavored is pretty big too though, but at least it's less mathy.
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Re: Keeping track of modifiers

Postby Gargoyle » Thu Nov 21, 2019 12:58 pm

fougerec wrote:To me limiting the number of actions would take Torg away from the over the top cinematic stuff some characters can pull off. I remember one game where the PCs were outnumbered...significantly...and the Elvish Archer said "so if I take out 10 of them...that's a what penalty?" and then pulled it off through possibilities and cards.

I've never found the modifiers that difficulty to track but i've also played tons of Shadowrun and Rolemaster over the years...


What I'm saying is limit the number of multi-actions not multi-targeting. They are two different things.
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Kuildeous
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Re: Keeping track of modifiers

Postby Kuildeous » Thu Nov 21, 2019 1:21 pm

Gargoyle wrote:Have you had more than two interaction attacks with an attack come up with any frequency?


Never. Usually in demos, the players are so used to restrictive RPGs that it doesn’t even occur to them that they can do more than one thing in a round. Even when they do realize it, it’s mostly multi-target that they do. Maybe someone gets sassy and shoots someone while pointing at someone else with a “You’re next” threat.

In my home game, I’ve had players taunt and trick a character but only to cheese out gaining two cards, even if the villain only takes the higher “damage” of the two. There’s little motivation to try more than two interaction attacks, though with the transparency of Torg, it’s possible for a player to decide to trick the dinosaur with the Mind of 4, taunt the insecure mook with the Charisma of 6, and maneuver against the plant with the Dexterity of 7. All that’s hypothetical though.

I figure the crazier they want to make it, the harder it is to pull off, so there’s already a built-in limit. If a player does push the bounds of reasonableness, then I can see justification for imposing a hard limit on the number of actions with the stipulation that additional actions are possible with GM approval. It’s pretty much the same thing as my philosophy; it’s a matter of setting the expectations for the players.
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fougerec
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Re: Keeping track of modifiers

Postby fougerec » Thu Nov 21, 2019 1:25 pm

Gargoyle wrote:
What I'm saying is limit the number of multi-actions not multi-targeting. They are two different things.


I've had a game where a PC had a sword in one hand, a laser pistol in the other and was a miracle worker. Since there was an Up result he cast Strike on his sword, stabbed one guy, shot another, kicked someone else in the head and intimidated 2 others. Yes he could have simply melee attacked the three enemies but this...this was way cooler and he willingly took the penalties to look more badass.

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Re: Keeping track of modifiers

Postby Greymarch2000 » Thu Nov 21, 2019 1:30 pm

One area that you can streamline is if some enemies targeted by something have an additional modifier associated with them like vulnerable or what have you and others don't only apply it if it applies to the majority of the opponents. If they shoot at 6 edeinos, 2 of which are vulnerable then don't consider it. If they specify they're shooting at 3 of them including the vuln ones count all 3 as vuln.

Differing DNs which then translate to differing BD are one of the biggest slowdowns in combat I find.

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Kuildeous
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Re: Keeping track of modifiers

Postby Kuildeous » Thu Nov 21, 2019 2:16 pm

Greymarch2000 wrote:One area that you can streamline is if some enemies targeted by something have an additional modifier associated with them like vulnerable or what have you and others don't only apply it if it applies to the majority of the opponents. If they shoot at 6 edeinos, 2 of which are vulnerable then don't consider it. If they specify they're shooting at 3 of them including the vuln ones count all 3 as vuln.


Well, that just floored me. It has precedence too. You know how you don’t get to reroll the first die if only one of your multiple actions is Favored? Or that you don’t reroll 20s if any of your actions is done unskilled? So that could easily support the idea that you only benefit from Vulnerable (or Very) if they all are. There is elegance in its simplicity.

And part of the appeal to me is for selfish reasons. I run a fairly loose game on my end of the table (can’t even say my side of the screen; that’s how loose I am). I don’t even write down opponents. I just use chips to indicate how they are. So when a player chooses to make two of my four mooks Vulnerable, I die a little inside as I have to track what happens when someone else shoots three of them. This blanket statement helps a lot.

For the OP’s example, it’s only +2 for Vulnerable, and the boss’s Very Vulnerable doesn’t factor into it. If you want to take advantage of Very Vulnerable, then go for the boss alone.

I have a greater tolerance for fiddly bits than most, so I don’t know if I will apply this, but it’s quite reasonable to do. I am in awe of the simplicity of beauty of that solution.
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Gargoyle
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Re: Keeping track of modifiers

Postby Gargoyle » Thu Nov 21, 2019 3:40 pm

fougerec wrote:
Gargoyle wrote:
What I'm saying is limit the number of multi-actions not multi-targeting. They are two different things.


I've had a game where a PC had a sword in one hand, a laser pistol in the other and was a miracle worker. Since there was an Up result he cast Strike on his sword, stabbed one guy, shot another, kicked someone else in the head and intimidated 2 others. Yes he could have simply melee attacked the three enemies but this...this was way cooler and he willingly took the penalties to look more badass.


Yeah I didn't say it wasn't more limiting in that respect, but that's not the example I was replying to. IMO this type of stuff is great. Figuring out all the modifiers isn't. There are pros and cons.
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Re: Keeping track of modifiers

Postby Gargoyle » Thu Nov 21, 2019 3:45 pm

Kuildeous wrote:
Greymarch2000 wrote:One area that you can streamline is if some enemies targeted by something have an additional modifier associated with them like vulnerable or what have you and others don't only apply it if it applies to the majority of the opponents. If they shoot at 6 edeinos, 2 of which are vulnerable then don't consider it. If they specify they're shooting at 3 of them including the vuln ones count all 3 as vuln.


Well, that just floored me. It has precedence too. You know how you don’t get to reroll the first die if only one of your multiple actions is Favored? Or that you don’t reroll 20s if any of your actions is done unskilled? So that could easily support the idea that you only benefit from Vulnerable (or Very) if they all are. There is elegance in its simplicity.


I like this approach too, and that there is an intrinsic philosophy that is supported by the Favored mechanic. Basically take the worst of your modifiers for all. It penalizes Villains too, especially the big bad ones, so it I think it's a fair approach.
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