Perk Advancement Cost

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Atama
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Re: Perk Advancement Cost

Postby Atama » Sun Nov 24, 2019 12:15 pm

Kuildeous wrote:My group has increased attributes. Numerically, there comes a point where it pays off, especially for Dexterity. If you have these adds:
+ 4 Ranged Combat
+ 2 Up-close Combat
+ 5 Dodge

then it would cost 14 XP to increase them all. If your Dexterity is 6, then it's worth it to bump that up for the same cost. And if you're super-dedicated to that attribute so that you have:
+7 Ranged Combat
+4 Up-close Combat
+4 Dodge
+4 Maneuver
+4 Land Vehicles
+4 Stealth

then you're looking at 33 XP to increase each of those skills. Raising Dexterity is clearly cheaper. That's an extreme example, of course.

Except in the real world if you’re “super-dedicated” to Dexterity you wouldn’t put it at 6. ;) In our group 9 is the median for both Dexterity and Spirit. If you’re really going to focus on it you’d make it even higher.

In your second example though, it might make mathematical sense to raise the stat though, because even 20 XP going from 9->10 seems like a relative bargain.

In our campaign the only attribute that was raised with XP was my character who recently bumped his Spirit to 10. But that was with the “Spirit of Takta Ker“ Perk. And it cost 11 XP.
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Kuildeous
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Re: Perk Advancement Cost

Postby Kuildeous » Mon Nov 25, 2019 12:22 am

Atama wrote:Except in the real world if you’re “super-dedicated” to Dexterity you wouldn’t put it at 6. ;)


It's the second example that was "super-dedicated." The first example could've just been anybody. I presume that if someone buys a bunch of skills up to 4 adds, then that would be the super-dedicated example.

I don't see this as a common occurrence prior to Gamma. There does come a point when you have maxed out the relevant skills and need to bump up attributes.
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Savioronedge
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Re: Perk Advancement Cost

Postby Savioronedge » Tue Nov 26, 2019 12:38 am

Greymarch2000 wrote:NPCs aren't PCs though. They aren't built like PC, they aren't made for the same reason PCs are. There's a reason the stat blocks are given with skill totals and not showing their "adds". Since I've been entering NPCs/monsters into Roll20 with the current sheet I have to enter their adds in and many of them have less that 16 total adds, and many have like a +8 to find or something just to give a challenge in comparison to their super low Mind score.

Basically comparing PCs to NPCs is futile since NPCs are really just a group of bundled DN's put together.


At the end of a recent Kill Team game, my Howling Banshee Exarch Zealot (apologies to those who don't have a clue...you don't really need one) for the first time in any of my games managed to charge, with the target my son's Scout Gunner with heavy bolter. As he started to fire overwatch, then to retreat, he was devastated to learn he couldn't do either because of the Banshee Mask. As he further discovered just how terrifying this woman is in melee, the cries of "That's cheating" kept getting worse. [In his defense, he is 12 and I usually play Harleys, and it was late so his autism was starting to show]. It didn't matter that I pointed out she had always been killed before reaching combat before. It didn't matter that I could point out models in his list just as rule breaking. All that mattered was an enemy had multiple abilities he could never have.

My point is: yes, comparing a PC to an NPC for build cost is stupid like trying to build a SpaceMarine who works like an Aldari, but if my combat monster or caster or sniper can never hope to compare to an NPC in raw talent, it can still feel like the NPC is "cheating" which can impact the enjoyment of the game.

ZorValachan wrote:I'll just input that i LOLed when I read attribute cost was too expensive... "In my day attributes cost 3x not this new fangled 2x"
But seriously, my group was awestruck when they learned attributes were only double cost instead of triple.

"NOW GET OFF MY LAWN"
But seriously, yes it is awesome that raising my 9 STR to a 10 is going to be 10 points cheaper than in oTORG, but then in oTORG there were ways to pull down 20 'XP' in one act...not likely, but possible.

Back to the OP: in one of the two PbP campaigns I have been playing in, my character is finally getting around to increasing his STR (as mentioned above) because any other perks he might want have now become prohibitively expensive for his concept. My other character has taken 2 new perks and was going to be getting 2-3 more (occasionally raising skills with the 'loose change 'xp) before raising her 5 CHA, her 6 DEX, or her 6 STR because even though I grumble about the cost of those perks, they are important to her concept while being able to survive in a fight never was. And between this and casters, the true cost of exponentially increased perks is born out...it is nigh impossible to make an "all flash, no substance" character. By the time you're buying your 5th perk, your mates have increased their skills and the badduns that will kill you even through your Prodigy powered Tenacious soaks are nothing but speed bumps to your friends. I don't know that this is a bad thing or that it isn't on purpose; I just know it's something one must consider when considering a Perk heavy concept.

Fuzzy
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Re: Perk Advancement Cost

Postby Fuzzy » Thu Nov 28, 2019 3:52 pm

NPCs can't be directly compared.

They have better stats, but fewer perks, no cards, and often less stuff. That's really just a GM crutch because it's fricking complicated to run a game in which you need to know all the details of every possible villain you play. Villains are simpler, have a narrower range, etc.

D&D discovered this after 3E, where they tried to have NPCs and Monsters have player-like rules, and it was so incredibly hard for a DM to run that many gave up trying. The only good thing about 4e (which sucked in both concept and execution) was that it separated the monster/player mechanics.

My sense from this thread is that the very high perk cost at advanced status is intended to create a somewhat narrower character concept and force some specialization. I think this is consistent with the Torg E philosophy that PCs should for the most part be single cosm, with maybe a dash of stuff from other cosms as they advance, but there should be no reality-mutts who do a little of everything.

I can see the point of that. We'll see how it plays out as our group is approaching ~150 XP after 16 months of play.

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Re: Perk Advancement Cost

Postby FrankG » Sun Dec 01, 2019 2:11 pm

Fuzzy wrote:Anyone else been thinking about this?


I think about it every time I give XP. I think having an XP reward system that is absolutely fixed (5xp per act, end of story) along with a curved XP cost system is broken for any group that is going to play long term. The characters will eventually stagnate from a character sheet point of view.
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Savioronedge
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Re: Perk Advancement Cost

Postby Savioronedge » Sun Dec 01, 2019 5:51 pm

Fuzzy wrote:My sense from this thread is that the very high perk cost at advanced status is intended to create a somewhat narrower character concept and force some specialization. I think this is consistent with the Torg E philosophy that PCs should for the most part be single cosm, with maybe a dash of stuff from other cosms as they advance, but there should be no reality-mutts who do a little of everything.


Except: the current "Reality Mutt" only needs 2 perks, Realm Runner and Adaptable. With these, he can use the most powerful tools he can get ahold of in any cosm he visits without fear of contradiction. That's right; reality mutt needs no advancement at all. And with the extreme limitations on cross cosm perks, there isn't any other way...even the Gama level perk only allows access to 1 tree from 1 cosm and can only be taken once.

What the increasing cost completely nurfs is the "Multiclass" player. If you want to be a Mage-Priest, you are either going to suffer, or become a dabbler...a priest who dabbled in magic or vice versa; the Spellsword will either stop improving spells or become a mage who swings a mettle stick.

And of course, MY favorite character types, the ones that ate always hard to play in any system, are purely impossible now. The person born psychic who turned to magic then religion to try and understand what was happening is not merely difficult. This is not a possible starting character unless starting after the first XP award, and even then the need for up to 8 skills and 3 good attributes renders this person a likability to a group without enough power to make up for it in the end. I had hoped Aysle would bring some answers, and I was severely disappointed in the spellbook/scroll use rules. Maybe Tharkold will be the solution, but it appears this "Flaw" is actually a design decision. TORG: ETERNITY does not want multitalented characters.

GeniusCodeMonkey
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Re: Perk Advancement Cost

Postby GeniusCodeMonkey » Sun Dec 01, 2019 6:23 pm

Just like with all system, if you don't like it, talk it over with your players and house rule it.

I agree that fixed XP with increasing Perk cost will stagnate later on, so fix the Perk cost to 5 XP for the first perk tree, then 7 XP for the next tree and so on..
Or maybe all perks cost 5 XP but Beta cost 10 XP, Gmma 15 etc.

As long as you talk it over with your player and are willing to play around while you figure out what works... go for it.
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Greymarch2000
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Re: Perk Advancement Cost

Postby Greymarch2000 » Sun Dec 01, 2019 8:13 pm

Savioronedge wrote:TORG: ETERNITY does not want multitalented characters.


Is that really the case though? My group has been through the Beta grind a few times now and I'm seeing more and more of them making multi-talented characters. In fact it seems to be easier to dabble in a bit of everything than to specialize in one path. After the initial purchase (and perhaps a secondary splat specific perk) to gain miracles/spells/psionics/whatever where you'll have 3-6 powers each new perk chosen only gives 1 power, whereas choosing a new powerbase to try will give you 2-3 powers for the cost of a single perk.

It's hard to be completely uber at more than one thing true, but I don't think that's what you're talking about. A significant amount of spells and powers are only DN 10 and a light dabbling of skill adds are all you really need to do many effects. Cards and possibilities can almost guarantee an Outstanding success whenever a player really needs it. My players have previously invested in getting their skill total for a single power up to 20+ and it hasn't really felt that it made that big of a difference to me, given how many BP they spent.

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Re: Perk Advancement Cost

Postby Sword of Spirit » Sun Dec 01, 2019 9:23 pm

Greymarch2000 wrote:My players have previously invested in getting their skill total for a single power up to 20+ and it hasn't really felt that it made that big of a difference to me, given how many BP they spent.


Quick question. The highest a non-Nile Empire human can get a skill to is 21 (with a 13 Attribute and Mastery Perk to allow 8 skill adds), correct?

I just want to make sure I'm not missing something obvious, because I've seen people talk about 20+ skills a few times like it's something completely normal and expected...

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Greymarch2000
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Re: Perk Advancement Cost

Postby Greymarch2000 » Sun Dec 01, 2019 9:29 pm

Sword of Spirit wrote:
Greymarch2000 wrote:My players have previously invested in getting their skill total for a single power up to 20+ and it hasn't really felt that it made that big of a difference to me, given how many BP they spent.


Quick question. The highest a non-Nile Empire human can get a skill to is 21 (with a 13 Attribute and Mastery Perk to allow 8 skill adds), correct?

I just want to make sure I'm not missing something obvious, because I've seen people talk about 20+ skills a few times like it's something completely normal and expected...


For humans. 22 for dwarves, 23 for elves/edeinos. And when it's a skill buy game where you can count on getting the same XP each Act you can pretty much easily plan out an "optimized" build that does that (though as I said - I don't think it's really that optimized in reality).


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