Perk Advancement Cost

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Wotan
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Re: Perk Advancement Cost

Postby Wotan » Mon Dec 02, 2019 2:48 am

Greymarch2000 wrote:
Savioronedge wrote:TORG: ETERNITY does not want multitalented characters.


Is that really the case though? My group has been through the Beta grind a few times now and I'm seeing more and more of them making multi-talented characters. In fact it seems to be easier to dabble in a bit of everything than to specialize in one path. After the initial purchase (and perhaps a secondary splat specific perk) to gain miracles/spells/psionics/whatever where you'll have 3-6 powers each new perk chosen only gives 1 power, whereas choosing a new powerbase to try will give you 2-3 powers for the cost of a single perk.

It's hard to be completely uber at more than one thing true, but I don't think that's what you're talking about. A significant amount of spells and powers are only DN 10 and a light dabbling of skill adds are all you really need to do many effects. Cards and possibilities can almost guarantee an Outstanding success whenever a player really needs it. My players have previously invested in getting their skill total for a single power up to 20+ and it hasn't really felt that it made that big of a difference to me, given how many BP they spent.

My groups have been through 8 or 9 sets of Beta characters now and our experience lines up with Greymarch's. "Multi-class" characters are very far from impossible but it is possible to spread a character too thinly at low XP.

Roughly speaking, at 50XP a character with a single focus (e.g. combat beast) can be pretty rounded in their area of expertise (AoE). At the same XP a "dual class" is probably getting towards being competent but necessarily isn't going to be as good at either of their AoEs. An equally split triple class is doable but will likely feel stretched, possibly too stretched to feel competent.
By a 100XP a tight single class build probably has relevant skills at 5, and a good selection of Perks which enable their concept. The dual class can have a respectable level of competence, and the triple class is getting there but might still feel a little stretched depending on the exact build.

I'm really not seeing a problem overall. Shouldn't a character with multiple AoEs take longer (more XP) to fully round out than a specialist with a single area of focus? From a balance point of view it seems like a no-brainer IMHO. *shrug*
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Fuzzy
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Re: Perk Advancement Cost

Postby Fuzzy » Mon Dec 02, 2019 2:53 pm

FWIW, I don't think TORG has a problem with "multi-classes". In fact, one of TORG's big attractions is the variety of characters you can create.

Doing a priest/mage in TORG isn't nearly as rough as a priest/mage in D&D (where you cap at 5th level spells at L20). This is partly because of the perk=3 spells/miracles to start which suffers decreasing marginal returns as you get more perks.

Also, I do like the limitations on out-of-cosm stuff. It forces a lot more diversity in characters, and some real tradeoffs. Without hard choices, you get a melange of a character where every iteration takes a similar path. In fact, hard choices are a signature of a well designed game, because easy choices means some things are always "just better".

I will say, though, that it sounds like most folks who play frequetly are just cycling through Beta characters... while I can imagine this is a lot of fun for some groups, we tend to spend several years with a campaign, and cycling characters suggests that it's more fun to do that than to grow characters to Gamma or Delta... and that actually speaks back to the original point, which is that players like to see character growth and you get a lot more of that at alpha and beta level than later on.

With that said, it's not a major issue. I was just curious if others had the same perception of very slow advancement beyond beta.

fougerec
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Re: Perk Advancement Cost

Postby fougerec » Mon Dec 02, 2019 3:21 pm

Depends on what you mean by "slow advancement"

I could see if if you're doing 5xp per Act and each Act is taking you multiple sessions. If buying your attribute up is taking 20xp and you're getting 5xp per act and each act is taking 3 sessions...that's 15 sessions. If you play weekly it's nearly 4 months!

We've been playing since pre-launch with the pdfs and just had session 43. I do 5xp per session and it works just fine for our group. There was originally some complaints but that's from people used to level based games where you get a bunch of cool new things each time you level. One player took to a system where he would put some XP aside for an attribute or perk and spend the rest - even if it was +1 to a skill or a new skill. That way he always felt like he was advancing and still got a bigger improvement at a steady pace.

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Greymarch2000
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Re: Perk Advancement Cost

Postby Greymarch2000 » Mon Dec 02, 2019 3:34 pm

In my group the characters got to Gamma and there just really isn't that much Gamma content out there. Instead they've sort of "soft retired" until such a point as their skills are needed. Plus I kinda want to actually use these mega adventures I paid for without having to alter them almost beyond recognition...

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Atama
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Re: Perk Advancement Cost

Postby Atama » Mon Dec 02, 2019 4:43 pm

My LL character is a mix of melee combat and Miracles (I call him a “caveman paladin”) and he does fine in both roles. High Strength and decent Dexterity combined with a high Spirit. Perks include Trademark Weapon and Relentless (an awesome combo), and then I grabbed Blessed Weapon (boosting his damage, a nice convergence of Faith and melee combat) and Miracles. Healing makes him the party medic, and Soothe is great to remove the Shock he takes on from using Relentless.

That dual role of melee juggernaut and party healer means he isn’t one-dimensional, and the two roles support each other. I think he’s a really successful “multi class”. And he’s definitely fun to play.

By the way, we’ve been playing for a long time and just got to Beta clearance. We play twice a month if we’re lucky and our Acts take many sessions to complete. So our characters develop very slowly. But so what? When you’re a bad ass from Day 1 who cares if it takes a while to raise a skill or get a new power? We’re saving people, solving mysteries, building relationships, fighting evil, and otherwise just going on adventures. This isn’t like an MMORPG where if you’re not getting new loot and powers nothing is happening. We’re living out an awesome story and having fun along the way.
“You are a bad person, and should feel bad.”
-TorgHacker (being tongue-in-cheek :D)

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TiaMaster
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Re: Perk Advancement Cost

Postby TiaMaster » Thu Jan 09, 2020 4:10 pm

I used to give my players in my MMO guilds the same speech. It happens, though, that most people do not subscribe to that sort of satisfaction. Rewards, especially improving characters is integral to most people having a good time.

Fuzzy
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Re: Perk Advancement Cost

Postby Fuzzy » Sat Jan 11, 2020 11:01 pm

TiaMaster wrote:I used to give my players in my MMO guilds the same speech. It happens, though, that most people do not subscribe to that sort of satisfaction. Rewards, especially improving characters is integral to most people having a good time.


It's a bit different than that, I think. Character advancement is integral to the story arc of a character changing over time, in which they begin as a street level hero and eventually become the hardened heroes who take down the big bad guy. In the first Ironman movie, the big enemy was... a businessman who stole Stark's ideas. In Endgame, it was Thanos.


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