Grasping Vines overpowered?

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pkitty
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Grasping Vines overpowered?

Postby pkitty » Fri Nov 22, 2019 6:05 pm

Am I missing something, or is grasping vines kind of OP when targeting melee-only foes, like most gospog and dinosaurs? One casting and the party can just step back and use ranged attacks to slaughter them without effort. (EDIT: This assumes at least a Good casting, but c'mon, that usually just takes one Possibility or card to get.)

1. It's against dodge, which means that the tougher the foe, the more vulnerable they are to it (since most tanky foes have modest dex). It's basically allowed the party to casually take out multiple T-rexes.

2. There's no resistance roll or ability to escape. Once cast, the foe just gets rained on for 3 rounds. Or they can ignore the trapped foes for three rounds to focus on other threats with no concerns.

I feel like there's something I'm overlooking.
Last edited by pkitty on Thu Nov 28, 2019 12:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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ZorValachan
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Re: Grasping Vines overpowered?

Postby ZorValachan » Fri Nov 22, 2019 7:47 pm

That's at Good success. They can walk at normal Success.

It's also going to affect all allies in the area since it's a blast. Allies don't count towards blast number of affected.
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utsukushi
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Re: Grasping Vines overpowered?

Postby utsukushi » Sat Nov 23, 2019 1:58 am

ZorValachan wrote:That's at Good success. They can walk at normal Success.

It's also going to affect all allies in the area since it's a blast. Allies don't count towards blast number of affected.

You say these things like they're mitigating factors. To lock down a T-rex or a hoard of gospog for three rounds, I think I can spare a Possibility, so needing a Good Success isn't really a problem. There's a good chance I won't even need that. A T-rex has a Dodge of 10, and jakatts often have Faith around 14 or 15.

And once this is done, there's no reason for your allies to be in the area - that was Pkitty's whole point. Even if they are at the beginning of the turn, being Vulnerable won't be a problem if your enemies can't do anything, so they can just Withdraw from Melee and leave before you cast.

Istrian
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Re: Grasping Vines overpowered?

Postby Istrian » Sat Nov 23, 2019 3:16 am

The spell doesn't prevent Interaction Attacks, so the trapped creatures can still make their attackers stymied or GM's Call-ed. It also doesn't prevent a T-Rex from picking up a big rock or uprooting a nearby tree and hurling it at the heroes.

GeniusCodeMonkey
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Re: Grasping Vines overpowered?

Postby GeniusCodeMonkey » Sat Nov 23, 2019 3:31 am

Istrian wrote:The spell doesn't prevent Interaction Attacks, so the trapped creatures can still make their attackers stymied or GM's Call-ed. It also doesn't prevent a T-Rex from picking up a big rock or uprooting a nearby tree and hurling it at the heroes.


The fact a T-Rex has short arms stops them picking up near by trees and big rocks.
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Greymarch2000
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Re: Grasping Vines overpowered?

Postby Greymarch2000 » Sat Nov 23, 2019 9:50 am

Entangle has been OP in every edition of D&D, so why not here?

ZorValachan
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Re: Grasping Vines overpowered?

Postby ZorValachan » Sat Nov 23, 2019 9:55 am

Ok, I'll just say this.
There are always variables. Whether or not the invoker has a Possibility, whether allies are able to retreat first. If a T-Rex can grab a rock or uproot a tree with its jaws and hurl it at someone (cool imagery)... Active defense + GM Possibilities....These are individual scenarios and it can go back and forth what may and may not happen.

If this has happened to multiple groups of T-Rexes and gospog, you now know what happens. Encounters don't have to be difficult. Sometimes the players shine. Or don't throw T-Rexes/gospog against them.

I GM with players who have both a psychic and a mage. They both have large blast radius powers (Confusion and Stun). Stun prevents movement on Good and they don't even get to do anything on Outstanding. I had a room of Shocktroopers taken out in 1 round with this spell. If I didn't want that possibility, I should have had them be gospog.

So, if there is a "problem" it's how blasts work, not the miracle. One roll that can affect many targets without a multi-target penalty is powerful whether it's magic, miracle, psionic, or a LAW rocket. Like you, I read and re-read the blast rules to be sure I didn't miss something. 1 round or 3 rounds don't really matter when the enemy can't do anything and the character can keep casting/invoking. Really, blasts are the only rule I found that is so subjective to only work ToTM (Theater of the MInd). But it does limit the blast to 5 gospog. Adventures usually have 2+ gospog per person. with a group of 4-5 players, that is 3-5 gospog not affected.

So my advice is to:
1) accept these situations let the heroes shine. If the T-Rex is due to a Dino Attack card, they only get 1 Possibility. It was a minor threat.
2) throw different opponents at them (Nile 2nd gen gospog have ranged weapons, what a surprise if vision isn't clear and they don't realize these gospog have guns)
3) Come up with a house rule to fit your own situation/talk to the player about your concern. I'm not sure if your group is friends outside the game or not and that might influence how you approach the matter.
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fougerec
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Re: Grasping Vines overpowered?

Postby fougerec » Sat Nov 23, 2019 10:11 am

I've found in Torg Eternity pretty much anything can be OP given the right circumstances. Heck 1 had one PC clear an area of 10 shocktroopers with a bow on one attack. Does that make Elven Archer OP?

Grasping Vines is awesome...in the Living Land and maybe Orrorsh. Less so on the streets of Paris or in the Sahara since the miracle doesn't create the plant life, just uses what's already there.

utsukushi
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Re: Grasping Vines overpowered?

Postby utsukushi » Sat Nov 23, 2019 1:55 pm

I do agree that the routes to being OP in Torg: Eternity are many and varied and generally available to everyone, which does indeed start to cancel out and make it all OK again. It is, after all, a cinematic game, and heroes in movies tend to be a little OP.

I'd actually say, though, that Zor touched on something I do see a bigger problem with, and it's not area effects. (Fireball is just fun for everyone!) Anything that completely denies acting is trouble in any game. Usually (and in Eternity as well) that's Grappling rules, which are always broken. Even in real life, which makes it hard to fix. Grappling-with-magic (things like Entangling Vines, or Mage Hands which has the added problem of attribute funneling), Stuns (Daze is highly abusable in D&D, and sure enough, hitting a whole group with it at once doesn't seem to make that better), and of course Mind Control... When I think back over the history of this forum to the issues that people have brought up and no one has really had an answer to, they all seem to boil down to, "Isn't being able to totally stop your enemy from doing anything at all somehow OP? I just can't put my finger on it."

And I think an even bigger issue is that the usual answer to an OP combination, "NPC's can use it, too!", doesn't really apply here. Unlike card combos, they certainly can, but... stun-locking the PCs and murdering them isn't going to be fun for anybody. If the PCs can't act, you pretty literally don't have a game. So maybe NPCs can, but GMs really can't.

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TorgHacker
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Re: Grasping Vines overpowered?

Postby TorgHacker » Sat Nov 23, 2019 2:47 pm

utsukushi wrote:I do agree that the routes to being OP in Torg: Eternity are many and varied and generally available to everyone, which does indeed start to cancel out and make it all OK again. It is, after all, a cinematic game, and heroes in movies tend to be a little OP.

I'd actually say, though, that Zor touched on something I do see a bigger problem with, and it's not area effects. (Fireball is just fun for everyone!) Anything that completely denies acting is trouble in any game. Usually (and in Eternity as well) that's Grappling rules, which are always broken. Even in real life, which makes it hard to fix. Grappling-with-magic (things like Entangling Vines, or Mage Hands which has the added problem of attribute funneling), Stuns (Daze is highly abusable in D&D, and sure enough, hitting a whole group with it at once doesn't seem to make that better), and of course Mind Control... When I think back over the history of this forum to the issues that people have brought up and no one has really had an answer to, they all seem to boil down to, "Isn't being able to totally stop your enemy from doing anything at all somehow OP? I just can't put my finger on it."

And I think an even bigger issue is that the usual answer to an OP combination, "NPC's can use it, too!", doesn't really apply here. Unlike card combos, they certainly can, but... stun-locking the PCs and murdering them isn't going to be fun for anybody. If the PCs can't act, you pretty literally don't have a game. So maybe NPCs can, but GMs really can't.


And yet...if we didn't allow PCs to do it...there would be complaints too.

TBH, I'd have been perfectly fine with that. I come from the 13th Age school of game design...I hate things like stun-locks and grapples and save or suck abilities...

But yeah, this is one of the big contradictions (heh) in game design IMO.
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