Axiom Increase

Fuzzy
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Axiom Increase

Postby Fuzzy » Wed Nov 27, 2019 11:07 pm

So, can characters take this Perk to exceed any known axioms?

For example, could a Core Earth character take it 7 times to have a tech axiom of 30, and then build a time travel machine?

Could a Living Land character take Cosm Adaptation (gamma level, admittedly), then Axiom increase 6 times to create world-affecting rituals?

Or, Aysle character similarly to do reliable wish magic?

In RAW, this is possible... but, should it be? Is the intention to "Adapt" to another cosm, and should the Axiom thus be limited to the axiom of one of the existing invading cosms?

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pkitty
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Re: Axiom Increase

Postby pkitty » Thu Nov 28, 2019 12:01 am

That's not a rules question, that's a GM question. Is the GM cool with you doing that? Will it add something to the campaign vs derailing it? Then sure, rock on. If not, then no.
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Atama
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Re: Axiom Increase

Postby Atama » Thu Nov 28, 2019 2:44 am

Like pkitty said this would be up to the GM. I see two obstacles; there aren’t rules for things like time machines or omnipotent rituals, so you’ll have to make them up. Secondly, things like that can greatly change a campaign and may take it into unexpected directions that the GM might have to account for or improvise, as well as affecting game balance.

My personal opinion is that PCs shouldn’t have the ability to do such things but you could have certain NPCs with hyper axioms that can introduce events and complications that the players will have to deal with.
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GeniusCodeMonkey
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Re: Axiom Increase

Postby GeniusCodeMonkey » Thu Nov 28, 2019 11:18 am

I see any hyper rituals, wishes or time machines as Macguffins for the story plot, not something that the PCs can pull out of their hat at any time.
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utsukushi
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Re: Axiom Increase

Postby utsukushi » Thu Nov 28, 2019 12:37 pm

I'm also not wholly convinced of your statement that RAW, they can.

Individual axioms are a lot more limited than world axioms. A Core Earther can't walk into the Living Land and "invent" machine guns.

If you're in a reality where all thinking beings can intuitively use Wishes whenever desired, then if you're a thinking being, you can do that. If you can intuitively use Wishes whenever desired while living in a reality that just doesn't offer that, congratulations! You've unlocked the power to be sadly disappointed every time you want something, but on a much more fundamental level than the rest of us because a part of you really expects it to happen.

Fuzzy
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Re: Axiom Increase

Postby Fuzzy » Thu Nov 28, 2019 3:40 pm

You've unlocked the power to be sadly disappointed every time you want something, but on a much more fundamental level than the rest of us because a part of you really expects it to happen.


Whoah, that's too deep for me... :shock:

My inclination was to limit the perk to invading cosm axioms, even though that's not how it's written. But, I wanted to confirm that was the intent of the perk. Hence, "Cosm adaptation" not "Cosm Creation".

I suppose there could be another perk, maybe delta or omega level, that allowed exceeding any known axiom.

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Gargoyle
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Re: Axiom Increase

Postby Gargoyle » Thu Nov 28, 2019 3:50 pm

Even world axioms are limited by world laws and mundane factors such as available funds and infrastructure, and further by the "tone" of the genre of that reality. I mean, the best example is the Social axioms of the Cyberpapacy and Tharkold being high enough to support certain types of social advances that still don't exist in those realities, but another example with less debate over axiom issues inherent in those cosms might be in Core Earth there are places where clean drinking water doesn't exist and (gasp) (tw) there isn't any wifi. And it's easy to imagine an almost total collapse of the Internet in a world that is being invaded on such a grand scale; but of course it's more fun to have it, so it works when the GM wants it to.

So increasing your Tech axiom to 30 might make inventing time travel possible for someone with the Reality skill, it's not likely to happen even then, and it will certainly be impossible if the GM rules it as such. And if they feel it hurts the campaign or the tone of the setting, that's how they should rule.

Really this perk should have been designed to be more useful, and I was told it was put in because a designer felt it belonged for some unknown reason.
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TorgHacker
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Re: Axiom Increase

Postby TorgHacker » Thu Nov 28, 2019 5:01 pm

Gargoyle wrote:
Really this perk should have been designed to be more useful, and I was told it was put in because a designer felt it belonged for some unknown reason.


It was a long time ago, but I think the gist was that somebody would want it in the game, but we didn't want to make it too big of a thing. So it's there if you really want it (and it actually will be used for one of the Delphi Council members in Heroes of the Possibility Wars).
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johntfs
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Re: Axiom Increase

Postby johntfs » Thu Nov 28, 2019 7:55 pm

TorgHacker wrote:
Gargoyle wrote:
Really this perk should have been designed to be more useful, and I was told it was put in because a designer felt it belonged for some unknown reason.


It was a long time ago, but I think the gist was that somebody would want it in the game, but we didn't want to make it too big of a thing. So it's there if you really want it (and it actually will be used for one of the Delphi Council members in Heroes of the Possibility Wars).


As far as Tech 30 goes, can a computer scientist who has traveled to the year 400 BC build a computer? Probably not. It's not that he doesn't know how. It's that he'd have to go through several iterations of "build the tools to build the tools to build the tools to build the computer." My take on "I'm Tech 30 I want to build a Time Machine." Would be "Fine with me. Figure after 50 game years of building it, you can make a roll to see if it works. So, your character will be off doing that and the rest of the group will be having adventures."

Eric Flint has been writing the 1632 series since the year 2000 or so. The premise is that small West Virginia town and it's surrounding territory (including coal ore) is transported to another dimension and lands in Germany during the 30 Years War. Initially their modern weapons give them a huge advantage, but they can't really make or replace bullets and other things. So, they concentrate on making allies and "gearing down" with the idea that while they can't maintain a 21st century lifestyle, they can probably pull off 19th century industrialization, which still puts them a couple centuries ahead of everybody else.

GeniusCodeMonkey
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Re: Axiom Increase

Postby GeniusCodeMonkey » Fri Nov 29, 2019 3:52 pm

This was the point I was going to make as well, just because your personal tech axiom is 30, doesn't mean you have the science skill to make a time machine or even the tools too. Or if you have a personal magic axiom of 30 that you have the self discipline to not wish to destroy the world when you stub your toe.

That's why this should firmly stay a plot device.
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