Cyberpapacy Sourcebook Preview Discussion

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pkitty
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Re: Cyberpapacy Sourcebook Preview Discussion

Postby pkitty » Sun Dec 15, 2019 2:45 pm

The Shield drone has a bunker mode that can be used to encase other people, not just yourself, protecting them but also preventing them from moving at all. So what happens if I tell my shield drone to provide bunker protection to the main bad guy? Did I just find a way to imprison him in place indefinitely (assuming his minions can't break my drone)?

Would this require some sort of attack roll, and if so what would it be and what would the defense be? Should this be allowed? If not, I'm not sure how to phrase it to disallow it and yet still make sense thematically.
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utsukushi
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Re: Cyberpapacy Sourcebook Preview Discussion

Postby utsukushi » Sun Dec 15, 2019 4:10 pm

Maybe just slip a "willing" in there? "In Bunker mode, the drone envelops one willing target..."

Or you could reword it so that it's not, "The target cannot intentionally move from its position," but rather, "If the target moves from its position, they leave the protection of the drone, which will automatically revert to Shield mode on its next action." That requires a little more reshuffling, though, and would end up taking more space.

Istrian
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Re: Cyberpapacy Sourcebook Preview Discussion

Postby Istrian » Sun Dec 15, 2019 4:20 pm

I'd just apply the rules for restraining someone using the drone's stats.

dchart
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Re: Cyberpapacy Sourcebook Preview Discussion

Postby dchart » Sun Dec 15, 2019 7:41 pm

Since I'm a bit late to the party, other people have spotted the technical things I noticed, so this is more background discussion. Lots of stuff I like in this book, but I'll focus on the problems. (While I really like the GodNet concept, for keeping everyone involved, I am not sure it is completely clear, but I haven't formulated my issues properly yet.)

I really like the Neurodiverse and Disability Perks. The Disability Perk is pretty much exactly how I handled being an Edeinos in Core Earth in An Edeinos in Core Earth, after all, so I was pretty much bound to like it. It might, however, be worth noting that someone with a disability and the Perk is only disadvantaged once per act, when they take the Possibilities. Otherwise, it's colour. In a wheelchair? Then you complain about stairs being bumpy, or explain that it's fun, but you get up and down them with no problem. Blind? You can drive, by sound or by the feel of the road through the tires. It's not realistic, it's cinematic.

I am, however, not clear on what the Cyberpapacy is doing with people with disabilities. Is it compulsory to be "fixed"? If so, how can people with visible disabilities be in the resistance? They'll be picked up right away. Is it voluntary? Then it's not particularly evil. Does it cost you Piety points? Similarly, are LGBTQ+ people treated like homosexuals in the US twenty years ago, pedophiles in the US today, or homosexuals in Nazi Germany? That makes a really big difference to the kinds of stories you can tell. (Also, trans ords are in serious trouble. As soon as they log in to the GodNet, they are caught for being trans, and if they don't log in to the GodNet at all, they are caught because they are not logging into the GodNet.) I think Muslims and Jews get burned at the stake, as do Catholics, because they are unrepentant heretics, but I might be wrong about that. This might be something that needs to go in the Stretch Goal books for space reasons, but it does seem like it is supposed to be a major feature of the oppressiveness of the Cyberpapacy, and the sourcebook is not clear about it.

Also, I think the fact that reclaiming territory from the Cyberpapacy will kill or disable millions needs more than half a sentence in the Delphi Council section. The Delphi Council can't pull Cyberpapacy stelae unless they have full physical control of the whole area and evacuate everyone with cyberware to an area that is going to stay in Cyberpapacy reality. Long term, they need to take control of Magna Verita, so that they can evacuate people back there. Or raise Core Earth's Tech Axiom to allow cyberware. This should be central to their strategy, at least by the end of Year One, and at least at the level of explicitly thinking "What are we going to do about this?". The fact that the Delphi Council's strategy appears to be "We faff about uselessly" is not very impressive. If they don't have a viable strategy, then they should have a strong focus on coming up with one. Is the LHC central to a plan to raise the Tech Axiom? Basically, I have no idea what the DC is doing in the Cyberpapacy, unlike the other cosms, which again makes it hard to create stories.

johntfs
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Re: Cyberpapacy Sourcebook Preview Discussion

Postby johntfs » Sun Dec 15, 2019 8:25 pm

dchart wrote:Also, I think the fact that reclaiming territory from the Cyberpapacy will kill or disable millions needs more than half a sentence in the Delphi Council section. The Delphi Council can't pull Cyberpapacy stelae unless they have full physical control of the whole area and evacuate everyone with cyberware to an area that is going to stay in Cyberpapacy reality. Long term, they need to take control of Magna Verita, so that they can evacuate people back there. Or raise Core Earth's Tech Axiom to allow cyberware. This should be central to their strategy, at least by the end of Year One, and at least at the level of explicitly thinking "What are we going to do about this?". The fact that the Delphi Council's strategy appears to be "We faff about uselessly" is not very impressive. If they don't have a viable strategy, then they should have a strong focus on coming up with one. Is the LHC central to a plan to raise the Tech Axiom? Basically, I have no idea what the DC is doing in the Cyberpapacy, unlike the other cosms, which again makes it hard to create stories.


This. All of this. In Old TORG people transforming to the CP spontaneously manifested Cyberware. If a stelae area was Gloried and reclaimed, they just lost that cyberware as they transformed back to Core Earth. In this case there is no physical transformation. People trasnform to the CP and are then surgically modified. So, as dchart notes, even if Storm Knights get their Glory on, tell their stories and unleash the power of Possibility, even though the people won't become what-ifs/never-beens, that's a hellova lot of people whose cyber eyes will go blind, limbs will stop functioning and otherwise be surgical patients being told that "Oops we left our instruments in every part of your body."

There's actually two nasty aspects of this. First, the CP is a double hostage situation even without the majority of the populous actively supporting the Cyberpope. Just ripping out the stelae will kill the people. But even properly preparing and then removing the stelae... will still cripple and kill a bunch of people. Which makes counter-offensives in terms of reclaiming Core Earth territory difficult if not impossible. Even worse, it could stall reclaiming territory from other realm because if too many invaders are driven off, Earth's reality will probably expel the rest, again leading to what-ifs and dead/crippled cyber people.

The second aspect is that this situation actually lends credence to Storm Breaker's approach. "They're all gonna die or be crippled anyway, so we'd better rip these things up now because the problem is just going to grow larger."

Wakshani
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Re: Cyberpapacy Sourcebook Preview Discussion

Postby Wakshani » Sun Dec 15, 2019 11:48 pm

Deanna's the final word on this one, but the intent from my end was that there are Jewish people, regular Catholics, Muslims, etc, but there's big social pressure to convert, made stronger by the world laws (ONE TRUE GOD looming at you 24/7) … in peaceful times, they're allowed to exist and get pestered constantly, but can be who they are. When scapegoats are needed, however, they get called out. There've certainly been pogroms and Spanish-style Inquisitions to force conversions upon pain of death, but in *general*, it'll wind up happening in time.

So, when politically expedient, you have an underclass that can be accused of all manner of things, but who are generally left to their own ways. That looming pressure is pretty awful tho. Think Fiddler on the Roof, where the Jewish population knew that something would happen in time, but not when, so just lived the best they could while waiting for the shoe to drop.

*checks*

Aw, one of the Eternity Shards didn't make the cut, either. There was a NICE one related to this. Nutbunnies. I'll hold off on talking about it in case it pops up in one of the other books tho. It was a fun part of the research I was doing. Roleplaying! Entertaining and sometimes educational!

utsukushi
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Re: Cyberpapacy Sourcebook Preview Discussion

Postby utsukushi » Mon Dec 16, 2019 1:58 am

I think it's probably better that a lot of that be left vague, so that groups can dial it up or down as they prefer. The CyberPapacy probably touches more on real life triggers than any other cosm.

But one of the key bits for me is to remember that that low Social Axiom limits more than just democracy. In principle, they have an absolute police state with near-perfect surveillance, but a lot of that requires that someone gets around to checking the records. I think the Resistance operates a lot in that space where yes, all the information has been saved in GodNet, but... there's time to get someone in there to delete it before anyone in the Church realizes its relevant.

On the side note... I know Deanna confirmed that yeah, it's just not great to be trans in the CP, but I don't think that's called out in the book, and I'm not entirely sure it makes sense to me. In Eternity, GodNet has been around for a while, and would have been revealing transgender and enby people all that time. It's not something you get to choose, it just kind of happens to some small percentage of the population... I could actually see that being a place where the CP is unexpectedly progressive, just acknowledging that some people are different in spirit than in flesh and it's not a big deal. All part of God's will. And I'd have to imagine their surgical options (for those who want those) would be pretty amazing.

graethynne
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Re: Cyberpapacy Sourcebook Preview Discussion

Postby graethynne » Mon Dec 16, 2019 5:14 am

Wakshani wrote:Aw, one of the Eternity Shards didn't make the cut, either. There was a NICE one related to this. Nutbunnies. I'll hold off on talking about it in case it pops up in one of the other books tho. It was a fun part of the research I was doing. Roleplaying! Entertaining and sometimes educational!


The 86k stretch goal is a set of eternity shards, so the one you are thinking of could maybe be in there?

here's hoping anyway!

Grae

graethynne
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Re: Cyberpapacy Sourcebook Preview Discussion

Postby graethynne » Mon Dec 16, 2019 5:41 am

johntfs wrote:
dchart wrote:Also, I think the fact that reclaiming territory from the Cyberpapacy will kill or disable millions needs more than half a sentence in the Delphi Council section. The Delphi Council can't pull Cyberpapacy stelae unless they have full physical control of the whole area and evacuate everyone with cyberware to an area that is going to stay in Cyberpapacy reality. Long term, they need to take control of Magna Verita, so that they can evacuate people back there. Or raise Core Earth's Tech Axiom to allow cyberware. This should be central to their strategy, at least by the end of Year One, and at least at the level of explicitly thinking "What are we going to do about this?". The fact that the Delphi Council's strategy appears to be "We faff about uselessly" is not very impressive. If they don't have a viable strategy, then they should have a strong focus on coming up with one. Is the LHC central to a plan to raise the Tech Axiom? Basically, I have no idea what the DC is doing in the Cyberpapacy, unlike the other cosms, which again makes it hard to create stories.


This. All of this. In Old TORG people transforming to the CP spontaneously manifested Cyberware. If a stelae area was Gloried and reclaimed, they just lost that cyberware as they transformed back to Core Earth. In this case there is no physical transformation. People trasnform to the CP and are then surgically modified. So, as dchart notes, even if Storm Knights get their Glory on, tell their stories and unleash the power of Possibility, even though the people won't become what-ifs/never-beens, that's a hellova lot of people whose cyber eyes will go blind, limbs will stop functioning and otherwise be surgical patients being told that "Oops we left our instruments in every part of your body."

There's actually two nasty aspects of this. First, the CP is a double hostage situation even without the majority of the populous actively supporting the Cyberpope. Just ripping out the stelae will kill the people. But even properly preparing and then removing the stelae... will still cripple and kill a bunch of people. Which makes counter-offensives in terms of reclaiming Core Earth territory difficult if not impossible. Even worse, it could stall reclaiming territory from other realm because if too many invaders are driven off, Earth's reality will probably expel the rest, again leading to what-ifs and dead/crippled cyber people.

The second aspect is that this situation actually lends credence to Storm Breaker's approach. "They're all gonna die or be crippled anyway, so we'd better rip these things up now because the problem is just going to grow larger."


Broadly speaking there are (as I see it anyway) two ways of looking at this. The first is mechanical - the "problem" is as you describe it more or less, and so the DC/PCs need to come up with a solution. Ripping up stelae, even with appropriate glory isn't a complete solution. There are more pieces to this puzzle. But that isn't *bad*. That just means that the CP has to be handled differently than the other realms. Ideally, this is true across the board. If the Possibility War devolved into a game of "whackastelae" that would get old long before the heroes won. So, if you want this to be a problem the heroes have to solve, great! There are tools available. Ritual magic, to be performed perhaps in the channel zones mixed with Aysle which perfects the vessel purging the cyberware in the process. Heck, maybe you can figure out a ritual that works under the magic axiom of the CP and hijack the stelae network or the GodNet (or both) to purge all cyber from everyone all at once. Sure the church can start recybering people but that will take time (remember every single piece of ware is hand crafted). And if you coordinate this ritual with attacks on the Monastery Factories where the ware is produced that is a bigger slow down. Not to mention that if you purged all of the skill chip sockets, it may take even longer to build up the capacity to start mass producing the larger 'ware again, buying time to start ripping stelae and flipping zones back (provided the glory that you would have needed anyway). This may not be the right answer, but I just came up with it in literally zero time after a real long and draining (but fantastic!!) weekend. Meaning, this is solvable by the PCs in the game.

The other way to look at it is purely narrative. Core Earth can't be conquered by a single invader alone. So the purely narrative solution is simply that the CP is the last to go. Once the critical threshold is reached, the CP gets evicted (much like Tharkold's failed latch in OG Torg) and the resulting CE Reality Wash transforms the population back and, as proper transformations the contradictory ware is replaced with viable flesh and blood. Again, this may not be he right answer per se, but it is an answer.

I don't mean any of the above to be dismissive of the concerns raised, but I suppose for me, listing problems is not terribly useful. Ask a question or offer an option. Help get from the problem you perceive to a resolution that us helpful to everyone. Y'all are smart and have more design credits than I do, so I imagine you can envision so pretty creative solutions.

Oh, here's another one (again from the mechanical side of PCs engineering a solution) - Pan-Pacifica is our bio-tech cosm right? I don't have my books open in front of me but, what about autonomous nano-bots that break down 'ware and fabricate replacement organic tissue in real time? Release them into a gloried zone - after an appropriate period - rip stelae. Nanites go inert under the CE tech axiom and are harmlessly expelled/broken down in the body. This might only work a few times before CP works up a counter, but again, the point isn't for SKs to have an infinitely repeatable "Goal" button that they smash, but to give players challenges in a cohesive narrative to overcome.

Anyhow, thanks for entertaining my ramblings, definitely time to think about sleep soon.

Grae

QuarrelBlue
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Re: Cyberpapacy Sourcebook Preview Discussion

Postby QuarrelBlue » Mon Dec 16, 2019 5:44 am

TorgHacker wrote:
graethynne wrote:Hi all,

Just a reminder from a fellow fan that if something looks like a mistake (typo, contradictory text, missing words or information) use the feedback link rather than posting it on the forum. Even if you aren't 100% confident on exactly how to describe or explain it on the form the gist of the guidance I received on the aysle book was "that will get us looking at it". The problem with posting perceived errors on the forums is that it is a nightmare for the team to work out whether the problem has been addressed already, and even once they have sorted that, it used up a lot of time and energy better spent elsewhere.

Other things, like interpretation/intent type questions are (I think, but correct me if I'm wrong) perfectly appropriate to post in these threads (and are more what the intent for them is, though again, if I am off the mark here I apologize).

Cheers all (gonna start feedbacking myself here come monday - bug hunting is fun!)

Grae


This is all correct.


Er..uh...You mean, ...Can I input description of the problem in place of "What should it say?" when the exact text is Not/Applicable?


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