Cyberpapacy Sourcebook Preview Discussion

ZorValachan
Posts: 681
Joined: Fri Mar 03, 2017 9:02 pm

Re: Cyberpapacy Sourcebook Preview Discussion

Postby ZorValachan » Sat Dec 21, 2019 3:54 pm

TorgHacker wrote:
ZorValachan wrote:
pkitty wrote:I just wanted to "upvote" this comment. This is an inexpensive implant that's incredibly powerful. Basically, it means that as long as you're doing single-shot attacks (which is a restriction, yes, but also means you're avoiding multi-targeting penalties), your shots (A) are at +4 to hit, (B) get full benefit from a scope, and (C) gets the benefit of Sniper and Lethal Shot. (That last one is the biggest issue, IMO, as it takes away the only thing that was balancing Sniper.) Put a gun in each hand (using different skills) and you can do it twice.

That's a ton of goodness for $3K. IMO BellSnipe should either be much more expensive or offer reduced benefits, like letting it keep the +4 to hit but saying that it isn't a "true" Aim action.


Before I comment. Where is Lethal Shot located?


Player Beta Primer


That was Killshot, but I found Lethal Shot in the Nile empire.

I disagree then.
for Relentless (which also give +BD) at the cost of 3 shock and being very vulnerable (all out attack adds +4 to hit also).

To get to aim and shoot in 1 round, you basically spend 2 Perks to get to aim and shoot in 1 round with an extra BD without the very vulnerable and shock cost (sniper + a cyberware perk). I don't mind adjusting the bellesnipe to a slightly higher price to be able to aim and shoot in 1 round with an +1BD. Bellesnipe states you can only shoot a single target with a single shot, so shooting with 2 weapons nullifies the shooting with a weapon in each hand thing.

For the Sniper + Bellesnipe + Lethal Shot, you need to be Beta, require a 15+ in the skill and you have to spend a Possibility. It doesn't seem OP at all for all the restrictions//costs. You get one really good shot off a round and can only do it while you are willing to spend Possibilities.
- Leamon Crafton Jr.
Infiniverse Exchange author:

The Paraverse: An entire alternate Cosmverse
http://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/237607/

The Knights of the Road: Archtypes designed as a Storm Knight group
http://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/228365/

Fuzzy
Posts: 162
Joined: Fri Jul 28, 2017 8:39 pm

Re: Cyberpapacy Sourcebook Preview Discussion

Postby Fuzzy » Sat Dec 21, 2019 4:53 pm

Not OP... really, cyberware should be GOOD. It should be worthy of tech 26 - and, really, CP isn't even taking full advantage of tech 26 because the social/spiritial axioms are limiting.

We don't see swarm-bot cloud computing assassin droid mobs... Or gene-encoded universal toxins/viruses. Cyberware is Cyberpapacy's thing. It should be just as good as Pulp Powers (whitch it isn't).

There are plenty of low-tech ways to trump it. Consider a STR 14 dwarf with armor and +2 modifier to damage an d2 handed axe (magical, at least +1, which will happen on the first glory in Aysle with an Aysle possibility, and by Beta probably +3 damage) and relentless... Yeah, that's 20+d6 base damage by 20 XP or so, and 22+d6 base damage by Beta. While the CP character doesn't need to stat load strength, there are other advantages to a 14 strength (like ridiculous toughness).

All of this is well within the boundaries of the campaign world. I'm actually not a huge fan of CP characters (decking is tough on the party), but from a pure balance perspective the cyberware actually might be slightly underpowered compared to certain other perks given it's the standout element in the cosm.

johntfs
Posts: 333
Joined: Fri Jan 06, 2017 12:31 am

Re: Cyberpapacy Sourcebook Preview Discussion

Postby johntfs » Sat Dec 21, 2019 8:48 pm

Fuzzy wrote:All of this is well within the boundaries of the campaign world. I'm actually not a huge fan of CP characters (decking is tough on the party), but from a pure balance perspective the cyberware actually might be slightly underpowered compared to certain other perks given it's the standout element in the cosm.


That's all part of the reason I'm planning to develop Cyberware Perks in terms of Perks that allow those with Cyberware to get a little more out of it while making Cyberware itself normal gear/equipment that's available only in the CP - much like magic wands and staffs are gear available in Aylse.

User avatar
pkitty
Posts: 362
Joined: Fri Feb 16, 2018 12:09 pm

Re: Cyberpapacy Sourcebook Preview Discussion

Postby pkitty » Sun Dec 22, 2019 2:59 am

ZorValachan wrote:I disagree then.
for Relentless (which also give +BD) at the cost of 3 shock and being very vulnerable (all out attack adds +4 to hit also).

I didn't understand this^ -- could you rephrase?

I don't mind adjusting the bellesnipe to a slightly higher price to be able to aim and shoot in 1 round with an +1BD.

Glad we agree. I don't have a problem with BelleSnipe existing. I just think that, compared to the other eye enhancements, its cost-to-power ratio is off.

Bellesnipe states you can only shoot a single target with a single shot, so shooting with 2 weapons nullifies the shooting with a weapon in each hand thing.

That doesn't match how I'm reading it. It isn't phrased as "you can only take one shot the entire turn" -- the implication is that the follow-up to your Aim must be a single shot. My interpretation: First I take an Aim simple action, then for my first action I shoot at a single target with a single shot, then I take a second Aim simple action, then first my second action I shoot at a single target with a single shot. (Mind you, if that's explicitly ruled invalid, cool by me, as that would help with that ratio.)
Our group's Torg Eternity wiki page
  • House rules, indexes of all perks/spells/etc, form-fillable character sheet, and more

graethynne
Posts: 197
Joined: Tue Jul 16, 2019 3:11 pm

Re: Cyberpapacy Sourcebook Preview Discussion

Postby graethynne » Sun Dec 22, 2019 5:12 am

pkitty wrote:That doesn't match how I'm reading it. It isn't phrased as "you can only take one shot the entire turn" -- the implication is that the follow-up to your Aim must be a single shot. My interpretation: First I take an Aim simple action, then for my first action I shoot at a single target with a single shot, then I take a second Aim simple action, then first my second action I shoot at a single target with a single shot. (Mind you, if that's explicitly ruled invalid, cool by me, as that would help with that ratio.)


Hmmm....I think this does violate the rules. You only have one offensive action per turn. Which you can "split up" via multi-action, however the multiple actions can't use the same skill (normally, there are exceptions, but none that I can think of that would be relevant here). There is also multi-targeting which normally allows you to shoot one gun at multiple targets. But you explicitly can't combine this special aim with with shooting more than one bullet.

So I think the way it would play out is simply this: Simple action to Aim. Action to Fire one bullet at one target, action is over. You now have one simple action left and your move. And of course free actions.

Hopefully that is both correct and helpful.

Grae

ZorValachan
Posts: 681
Joined: Fri Mar 03, 2017 9:02 pm

Re: Cyberpapacy Sourcebook Preview Discussion

Postby ZorValachan » Sun Dec 22, 2019 1:04 pm

graethynne wrote:
pkitty wrote:That doesn't match how I'm reading it. It isn't phrased as "you can only take one shot the entire turn" -- the implication is that the follow-up to your Aim must be a single shot. My interpretation: First I take an Aim simple action, then for my first action I shoot at a single target with a single shot, then I take a second Aim simple action, then first my second action I shoot at a single target with a single shot. (Mind you, if that's explicitly ruled invalid, cool by me, as that would help with that ratio.)


Hmmm....I think this does violate the rules. You only have one offensive action per turn. Which you can "split up" via multi-action, however the multiple actions can't use the same skill (normally, there are exceptions, but none that I can think of that would be relevant here). There is also multi-targeting which normally allows you to shoot one gun at multiple targets. But you explicitly can't combine this special aim with with shooting more than one bullet.

So I think the way it would play out is simply this: Simple action to Aim. Action to Fire one bullet at one target, action is over. You now have one simple action left and your move. And of course free actions.

Hopefully that is both correct and helpful.

Grae


As Grae stated you don't get 2 actions. The one weapon in each hand (energy weapon and firearm) still would not work, because that is a multi-action, not 2 separate actions (1 roll as opposed to 2 rolls). Aim - shoot - aim - shoot is breaking the multi-action up into 2 independent actions. and you can't aim - shoot - shoot, with both getting the Bellsnipe bonus because it specifically states 1 shot.

Sure you can throw down a flurry (or have it come up on the drama card), but that's a bonus turn, so nothing wrong there.

As for price, I'm not saying it should be expensive. Max $5000. Because really i see this cyberware as something that if it wasn't here, I'd want to see some future Perk (even if homebrewed) to allow a person with sniper to aim and shoot in the same round. the needing a smartgun attachment is also a limitation (very minor $200, but you still need to buy it)

Relentless was just for comparing the melee Perk that gives a +1 BD and a +4 to hit because of a needed combat option. Relentless can be used every round at the cost of being very vulnerable and 3 shock. Sniper was +1BD +4 to hit at the cost of spending a round aiming. Allowing a +1BD every round (damage wise) is not a game breaker at the cost of an additional Perk. And Lethal Shot has limitations that it can't be used often (yes it's very nice, but the Possibility cost limits it heavily). The shock cost of Relentless can be mitigated through potions, second wind card, etc. whereas the Aim takes a full round had nothing to lessen it before this. And Relentless can still be used Multi-target (if you have the shock), as there is no 1 attack limitation. So the very vulnerable is still the "balance" for being able to hit multiple targets.
- Leamon Crafton Jr.
Infiniverse Exchange author:

The Paraverse: An entire alternate Cosmverse
http://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/237607/

The Knights of the Road: Archtypes designed as a Storm Knight group
http://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/228365/

Fuzzy
Posts: 162
Joined: Fri Jul 28, 2017 8:39 pm

Re: Cyberpapacy Sourcebook Preview Discussion

Postby Fuzzy » Sat Dec 28, 2019 7:05 pm

johntfs wrote:
That's all part of the reason I'm planning to develop Cyberware Perks in terms of Perks that allow those with Cyberware to get a little more out of it while making Cyberware itself normal gear/equipment that's available only in the CP - much like magic wands and staffs are gear available in Aylse.


I don't mean to comment about individual campaign choices, but would comment on this general thread. The above is true about wands/staffs, but the stuff you can simply buy in Aysle (i.e. basic magic items, which typically grant +1 damage, to skill, or favored) still don't come close to compensating for the Standard tech you can buy at tech 23 and above without any perks.

Guns (with laser sights, scopes, shotgun +2 to hit, rapid fire +2 to +4 to hit, long range, armor piercing ammo, etc.)
Grenades (more damage than a fireball)
Heavy weapons (LAW rockets... which are pretty cheap and easy to requisition to boot)
better/higher dex armor (magic leather is +2, dex cap 12... vs. irimesh which is +2 no dex cap, or hallomesh, which is +3 dex cap 12)
Even a Electric Katana (tech 24) has damage 4, AP2 vs. Damage 3 longsword (or normal katana) and +4 for a basic magic longsword. The magic in Aysle barely helps compensate for the non-cyberware tech.

The only stuff that is potentially better is your one arcane item and (if you can get it!) your one artifact... And yeah, that's really nice, so an Aysle knight can be better at one thing (like having a +6 damage sword vs. the +4 damage/AP2 electro katana or CP powersword), but is typically worse at most things.

Indeed, your typically cyberknight CAN have a magical power sword too, though it's uncommon (see the Aysle possibilities), and this fits perfectly well into CP's tech/magic/spirit axiom. That cyberknight can also have +1 hallow mesh armor (no contradiction). And a +1 grenade launcher (holy hand grenade Batman!). Not so your Tharkhold character, and your other high magic areas (Nile, Orrorsh) don't have tech that's SOO much better than Aysle. So from a purely balance perspective, I don't think CP characters are hurting at all.

I think the point of cyberware is that it's a perk because it does have a human toll - it takes time and effort to get your brain and muscles and nervous system to be able to interface with the tech. It's a cost in the same way that learning another spell is a perk cost (rather than just something you buy in a book). And yes, NPCs get it for "free", but we can't really compare NPCs to PCs. Among other things, any elite NPC stats are just across the board better.

johntfs
Posts: 333
Joined: Fri Jan 06, 2017 12:31 am

Re: Cyberpapacy Sourcebook Preview Discussion

Postby johntfs » Sun Dec 29, 2019 3:58 am

As long as you have the money/Streetwise, you can have as many spells as you want to - by purchasing scrolls.

Savioronedge
Posts: 546
Joined: Fri Aug 25, 2017 11:55 pm

Re: Cyberpapacy Sourcebook Preview Discussion

Postby Savioronedge » Sun Dec 29, 2019 5:34 am

johntfs wrote:As long as you have the money/Streetwise, you can have as many spells as you want to - by purchasing scrolls.

This one I have to respond to.

My first character concept for Eternity was a CE Wiccan priestess who used her psychic powers and miracles, and who cast spells out of a grimoir. I found out quickly that stat/skill wise this was untenable, so when I had the chance to make her, I dropped the Psychic part and waited impatiently for the Aysle sourcebook to give me Spell books or Scrolls...and what it gave me was useless (for my purposes). It costs half a character's starting funds for a single, simple scroll, a One-Shot-per-Adventure long range Mauser Pistol (Bullet) for example. For an OpA Fireball the cost is 5000.

No, 'upgrading' your mage with money is not a reasonable expectation.

Fuzzy
Posts: 162
Joined: Fri Jul 28, 2017 8:39 pm

Re: Cyberpapacy Sourcebook Preview Discussion

Postby Fuzzy » Sun Dec 29, 2019 10:57 pm

Admittedly, the streetwise rules for acquiring things have potential for abuse. Essentially, streetwise becomes "money". Now, while not many characters have the kind of charisma to really abuse this, it's not impossible to create one that does.

We addressed that problem by ruling that Streetwise only finds the connection - basically the fence or black market dealer. The players still need resources to make the purchase, which they might get by capturing stuff while adventuring and selling it to a fence (i.e. via streetwise) assuming it doesn't get turned over to the Delphi Council.

But even if you play streetwise as written (which is a bit odd), and you have 5 adds of streetwise (which is quite the investment), you still only get DC 16 cost items if you roll well, and even then you only get one. Given a reasonable time cost in procuring such items, Savoironedge has the right of it. Building a mage from magic scrolls isn't really an option, compared to (say) a soldier firing scads of M203 grenades with more damage, better range, lower cost. Especially since Delphi Council is based in Core Earth and can standard issue M203s but probably doesn't have cases of fireball scrolls in crates at the national guard depot.

One thing we did notice is that every time there's a glory in Aysle (and, often when there is no glory but someone rolls high), magic items pop up. Some of them are (by sheer randomness) quite valuable, and we have allowed players to find magic item dealers to trade in these for potions, scrolls, etc., assuming they are available. This hasn't really unbalanced the game at all, and it doesn't feel unusual in a high magic fantasy genre, but players still don't pop off potions regularly because they're quite aware that this is only feasible because we're running the Carredon campaign at the moment.


Return to “Rules Questions (TORG)”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 13 guests