Increase Axiom

graethynne
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Increase Axiom

Postby graethynne » Fri Jan 17, 2020 3:16 pm

Hey all,

I thought I saw a discussion of this somewhere, but I couldn't find it, but HotPWV1 reminded me of something. Core Earthers can get good mileage out of this perk for tech, basically jumping a cosm each time they take it. This is also true for social though broadly speaking that has less of an impact.

What happens if we make this true for the other axioms? Basically, rather than 1 point, the Storm Knights personal Axiom jumps to the next value represented on Earth. So for Magic it would go from 9 to 12 (Tharkold) to 14 (NE & CP) to 16 (Orrorsh) to 24 (Aysle). So 4 perks instead of 15. And Spirit would similarly go from 10 to 16 (CP & Orrorsh) to 18 (NE and Aysle) to 24 (Living Land) 3 perks instead of 14.

This is mostly an academic discussion for me at the moment as I don't have any Players who have inquired into this, but I am curious what folks see as the major consequences of this (both positive and negative). Thoughts?

Thanks!

Grae

Zackzenobi
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Re: Increase Axiom

Postby Zackzenobi » Fri Jan 17, 2020 3:53 pm

Maybe I'm confused but I thought Increase Axiom increased one of your Axioms by 1 point?

utsukushi
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Re: Increase Axiom

Postby utsukushi » Fri Jan 17, 2020 4:06 pm

viewtopic.php?f=28&t=3975&p=40891

...Was the original discussion, and Deanna even mentioned that we'd see it in Heroes. I'd forgotten, but going to look, sure enough, it's in Tech, because I suppose where else would it go?

But personally I like this idea. I understand Deanna's original explanation - that it exists not so much because it's a good idea as because it just sort of needs to be there. And maybe when we get to the Core Earth book* we'll see things that build off of it in some useful way and make it awesome**. But I think this fits the actual purpose of the Perk, and makes sense in the game world, that the character is kind of... attuning themselves in stages. I think it would be reasonable to say you have to have experienced the Cosm at some point to reach its level, which also makes Orrorsh something you have to deal with if you're trying to reach Asyle levels of magic. (Spirit you can get through the CP, which is also a pretty scary place, and the other two Earth is already ahead of Orrorsh. I actually kind of like that.)

It also cuts off the question of pushing yourself to a 30. It may be theoretically possible to get all of them, but you'd be limited to the Axioms you can get exposure to.

(And apologies to Gargoyle! I know linking to old threads is totally your thing. ;) )

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pkitty
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Re: Increase Axiom

Postby pkitty » Fri Jan 17, 2020 4:08 pm

Zackzenobi wrote:Maybe I'm confused but I thought Increase Axiom increased one of your Axioms by 1 point?

Right, and Grae is pointing out that, from a Core Earth perspective at least, +1 Tech is basically "jump to the next higher-tech cosm," and extrapolating a possible house rule from there.
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graethynne
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Re: Increase Axiom

Postby graethynne » Fri Jan 17, 2020 4:10 pm

pkitty wrote:
Zackzenobi wrote:Maybe I'm confused but I thought Increase Axiom increased one of your Axioms by 1 point?

Right, and Grae is pointing out that, from a Core Earth perspective at least, +1 Tech is basically "jump to the next higher-tech cosm," and extrapolating a possible house rule from there.


Bless you pkitty! Yes that is exactly what I was trying to get at. Since one point at time moves CE Storm Knights up an effective cosm for both Tech and Social, but has much less impact for the other two.

Grae

ZorValachan
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Re: Increase Axiom

Postby ZorValachan » Fri Jan 17, 2020 6:53 pm

Social does basically the same thing for a CE character 23, 24 (PP), 25 (Tharkold)

A CE psychic could raise Social 23 to 24 and pick up Mend. Raise it to a 25, Mind Blast and Mind Control could be possible.

Spirit 10 to 12 (2 times) strike is available in Miracles.

There are quite a few Magic axiom 10 spells that 1 a point raise would allow.

And if you GM is shitty and won't allow you to take from another list, it won't matter if you raised anything by 1 point or multiple points when it comes to spells/miracles/psionic powers.

With Cosm Adaptation, the Tharkold character could boost magic to 13 and be able to have magic items without contradiction.

I don't see it breaking anything with your house-ruie, but I don't see it useless as it is either, even for non-tech things
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Kuildeous
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Re: Increase Axiom

Postby Kuildeous » Mon Jan 20, 2020 8:41 am

graethynne wrote:Basically, rather than 1 point, the Storm Knights personal Axiom jumps to the next value represented on Earth. So for Magic it would go from 9 to 12 (Tharkold) to 14 (NE & CP) to 16 (Orrorsh) to 24 (Aysle). So 4 perks instead of 15. And Spirit would similarly go from 10 to 16 (CP & Orrorsh) to 18 (NE and Aysle) to 24 (Living Land) 3 perks instead of 14.


I like the concept. I see a technical snag here.

Say that you do this for Spirit so that the SK's personal axiom jumps to 16 while everyone else is at 10. Then you decide you want to introduce a new realm (or Ulisses even!). This new realm has a Spirit axiom of 12. Do you retroactively change the perk so that a Spirit jump goes to 12 instead of 16? Or say that the perk skips over 12 and continues down the progression of 16, 18, and 24?

That's not to say that this idea should be discounted, but I feel this scenario should be covered.
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graethynne
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Re: Increase Axiom

Postby graethynne » Tue Jan 21, 2020 6:33 pm

Kuildeous wrote:
graethynne wrote:Basically, rather than 1 point, the Storm Knights personal Axiom jumps to the next value represented on Earth. So for Magic it would go from 9 to 12 (Tharkold) to 14 (NE & CP) to 16 (Orrorsh) to 24 (Aysle). So 4 perks instead of 15. And Spirit would similarly go from 10 to 16 (CP & Orrorsh) to 18 (NE and Aysle) to 24 (Living Land) 3 perks instead of 14.


I like the concept. I see a technical snag here.

Say that you do this for Spirit so that the SK's personal axiom jumps to 16 while everyone else is at 10. Then you decide you want to introduce a new realm (or Ulisses even!). This new realm has a Spirit axiom of 12. Do you retroactively change the perk so that a Spirit jump goes to 12 instead of 16? Or say that the perk skips over 12 and continues down the progression of 16, 18, and 24?

That's not to say that this idea should be discounted, but I feel this scenario should be covered.


I'd say (for my game) that folks are grandfathered in, and I probably wouldn't add interstitial steps for new cosms added later on for new characters since right now it is 3 perks to max Tech and 2 for social and under the proposed house rule 4 for magic, and 3 for Spirit. If we got a higher Social Axiom Cosm than Tharkold I'd be fine adding that stop on top. And maybe in a perfect world interstitial steps to being Social and Spirit to 4 steps total with a new higher Tech option would "even" them all out. But ultimately my concern isn't that this perk be perfectly balanced across the four axioms, but balanced enough to be worth taking for any of them. If that makes sense.

Grae

FrankG
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Re: Increase Axiom

Postby FrankG » Wed Jan 22, 2020 11:43 am

I feel like, if you wanted to do this, you should just make a new perk, not change the existing one. Increase Axiom, to me, is about characters pushing the limits of their native Cosm to a point that they can do it without contradiction.

What you're suggesting sounds something like Axiom Attunement or Cosm Attunement or something like that.

The talk about "jumping to the next highest Axiom level of the available Cosms" doesn't feel good to me. That suggests that there are a finite amount of Cosms and they're all here on Core Earth now. In the current game material we already know that's not true.
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utsukushi
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Re: Increase Axiom

Postby utsukushi » Wed Jan 22, 2020 1:09 pm

I definitely feel a conflict between what makes sense for the game (where I like the idea of Increase Axiom being useful for all four Axioms) and what makes sense with the world (where I totally agree with FrankG.) I don't see any way to do both, and I don't fault the devs for picking the latter.

I guess I'm not really sure there is a good answer, which is probably why Deanna acknowledged way back that no, this Perk isn't great, it just had to exist because people would have asked about it if it didn't. And hope the Core Earth book is able to build on it somehow. And if not, I'll still be pretty impressed with the rarity of real duds considering how many Perks there are.


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